Re: [ZION] This is Me
Jim offered: This is the perfect gift for rendezvous black-powder re-enactment enthusiasts. Made in Canada. === Grampa Bill comments: Not sure I'd want to wear anything that looked like that around a bunch of boozed up northern rednecks carrying guns.. Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Hai karate?
Stephen Beecroft wrote: So my question is: Does anyone on this list do martial arts-type stuff? Any ninjas, or karate kids, or judo choppers, or boxers, or Muay Thai kickboxers? = Grampa Bill comments: Never had anything to do with any of the martial arts. If I recall correctly, however, from Cousin Bill's wedding, his bride's family has a Samurai ancestry as indicated from some of the emblems worn on the kimonos. Bill's ancestry on the other hand only killed: * Yankees during the War of Northern Agression; * Brits during the American Revolution; * Indians during various Indian Wars; * Frenchmen during the Hundred Years War; * Blackamoors during Medieval Spain; * Assorted Muslims during the Crusades * Both Saxons and Normans during the Conquest of England; * Assorted Germanic Tribesmen who defied Charlmagne. * and other miscellaneous villains in conlicts too numerous to mention. Other than that, we come from a long peaceful lineage. Yep, a peace-loving bunch we are. Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Hai karate?
Cousin Bill wrote: (B (BMy kids do kendo, bamboo-sword fighting. But it would be pretty (Buseless unless you had a bamboo sword with you when you needed to (Bdefend yourself. (B (B (BGrampa Bill comments: (BAnd Cousin Bill himself was once Amateur Sumo Champion of Mizusawa. (BSadly, as his body grows toward traditional Sumo proportion, he has retired. (BLove y'all, (BGrampa Bill in Savannah (B (B// (B/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// (B/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// (B/ (B--^ (BThis email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (B (BEASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 (BOr send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (B (BTOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! (Bhttp://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html (B--^
Re: [ZION] Thrift!
At 03:35 PM 11/10/2003, you wrote: Yes, yes, Till once had a bugeye Austin Healy Sprite*. Absolute fun to drive. The only drawbacks were the long gap between 2nd and 3rd gear, and the absence of side windows (had curtains) when it was cold. Sure miss that little blue Frog! I had a 1953 Healy 100. It was a sports car of sorts, but it had a 4 banger 2800 cc engine and transmission out of a tractor. You could climb up the side of a building in first gear, maxing out at 4 MPH. I bet it couldn't beat my 1953 Willey's Jeep 4 banger I used to own. Once in 4-Wheel Drive, I could idle my way up steep hillsides. That old Jeep was great fun. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Editor, The Constitutional Broadside Newsletter http://www.thecbn.net // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Signs Yet to Come
At 07:11 PM 11/10/2003, JWR wrote: 19. No man can buy or sell without the mark of the beast Just what is the mark of the beast? Is it an actual physical bio-chip, as most fundamental Baptists or Christian fundamentalists believe? Or does it mean something else. Below are my thoughts, in an essay I once wrote upon the subject: 666: OF MEN, MARKS, BEASTS AND THE SEALING POWER! By: Steven Montgomery One of the overarching themes of the Book of Revelation deals with the victory that Jesus Christ and the righteous have over Satan, Babylon and mankind's twin nemesis, both Spiritual and Physical Death. The righteous, we are informed by Revelation 15:2 are those who gain victory over the Beast and thus qualify to live on this earth in its Celestial Glory. It's interesting to note that those who accept Christ and overcome Satan are sealed up unto eternal life by having Christ's name written on their foreheads (see Rev. 7:3 and 22:4). Under the law of Moses the Israelites were commanded to wear phylacteries on their hands or frontlets upon their foreheads which were little boxes that contained certain scriptures written inside them as a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's law may be in thy mouth or in other words that the righteous were to treasure up the words of Christ in their heart and soul and to physically bind these items on their hands or foreheads as a sign of this fact (see Exodus 13:9,16; Deut. 6:8; 11:18). Satan, as the great counterfeiter, also seals his followers with a mark in their hand or forehead. But what is this mark and what does it represent? Is it an actual physical mark or merely symbolic? What characterizes those who have the mark? As a result of the fall of Adam and without the atonement of Jesus Christ, man is carnal sensual and devilish. Thus Satan causes ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond to receive his mark in their right hand or in their forehead. Since this is a mark which affects all mankind it clearly cannot be an actual physical one. It is symbolic. Thus It represents man in his mortal state and without the atonement of Jesus Christ, who truly cannot buy or sell without the mark of Satan (see Rev. 13:16-18; 14:1, 9-11; 17:5). It is also significant to note in Rev. 14:9-11, that those who thus follow Satan and receive his mark on their forehead or hand, suffer the wrath of God, are tormented with fire and brimstone, and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever--quite a punishment just for accepting a mark for food, as the christian fundamentalists believe, especially if one did so without knowledge or innocently! Reading these scriptures in context just doesn't bear this viewpoint up. It should be obvious that the punishment mentioned here is the hell that all of Satan's followers receive after the last judgment. Also of note is the mention in Rev. 17:5 that spiritual Babylon will have the words MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH written on her forehead. Do the Christian fundamentalists really believe that there will be a great Babylon arise up with these literal words on her forehead? Well, what about the number of the beasts name, 666? Consistent with Moses 6:63, which states that all things are created and made to bear record of Christ, or in some manner testifying of the gospel plan, the number 6 to the Jews represented Man under sin. For example man was created on the 6th day. Cain's descendants are listed to the 6th generation. There are 66 generations listed from King David to Joseph. The Man of Sin or Satan is represented by the number 666. The 6th letter of the Hebrew Alphabet is the letter vav which is the sign of the nail. Symbolically, the numeral 6 when written or printed, appears to signify a coiled snake--ready to strike. The number 7, on the other hand, represented God's seal, often called the perfect number by the ancients. For example, god sanctified the 7th day and blessed it. The week has 7 days. The 7th day was the Old Testament Holy Day or Sabbath. Joshua ordered his people to march around Jericho 7 days with 7 priests, and 7 times on the 7th day. 7 is also significant in the natural creation. The musical scale has 7 full notes. Pure light is broken into 7 colors by a prism or rainbow. Jesus Christ received 7 wounds on his body. Furthermore, in connection with the number 666, It's interesting to consider that the jewish cabalistic magic square (those square mathematical puzzles which when added up either horizontally or vertically add up to the same number) of the sun (or Son!) when totaled adds up to 666. Additionally when the 12 (symbolic of the twelve disciples) diagonal squares (the letter x or sign of Christ) are added they each total 111 which when both are added to 666 become 888, the gematria value of Jesus. In addition a circle can fit in the
RE: [ZION] Thrift!
Gerald a Smith wrote: My car is a 1995 Saturn. I bought it almost 2 years ago for $1500, with 200K miles on it. It now has $240K miles on it and still running great. I think my next car might be a Saturn, also. I may have a question for you, then. I've got a '95 Saturn also, an SL1, that's at 215,000+ miles. But there are several problems with the car that have accumulated over the last few months, the most serious of which seems to be the transmission. Currently it drives and shifts OK, but I'm hearing the beginning of banging and grinding noises, especially on the lower gears. And then besides all this, it overheats when the A/C is on (hopefully just a thermostat issue), it needs new tires, I'm told it needs an alignment, it leaks or burns oil at the rate of 2-3 quarts every 3,000 miles, and I'm beginning to think I may need a new battery. But even with all this, the car seems at the moment to be drivable. That said: I'm thinking I might be able to put $500-700 into the car and get everything taken care of except for the transmission. But I fear the transmission is a whole different animal...wouldn't that be hundreds of dollars just for someone to look at it...? So I'm wondering if I've finally reached the point where I need to junk the car. Melinda leans in that direction...I guess I do also, but we're not in a position, quite honestly, to buy a used car, much less a new one. It's a bit of a dilemma. :-o /Sandy/ -- The Rabinowitz Family, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Spring Hill, Tennessee // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Thrift!
Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz wrote: I'm wondering if I've finally reached the point where I need to junk the car. == Grampa Bill comments: I'm reminded of the saying. If you're so smart, why ain't you rich? And I ain't rich! Nevertheless, siince you asked, I'm also reminded of something I once read about cars... Divide the car into three assemblies, the engine, the drive train, and the body. As long as two out of those three are good-to-go, then just fix up the other one. When it gets where two or all three are bad, dump it! Sounded like pretty good advice. Love y'all Grampa Bill in Savannah // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Holy Spirit of Promise
Is having ones Calling and Election Made Sure and being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise the same thing? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Elder Nelson on Unconditional Love
He could have been enlightened on that at the later date. Stacy. At 05:14 PM 11/04/2003 -0900, you wrote: Apparently Elder Nelson himself has spoken of God's unconditional love in General Conference. Heh, heh. I wonder if he was aware of that when he wrote his article for the February 2003 ENSIGN. Godliness characterizes each of you who truly loves the Lord. You are constantly mindful of the Savior's atonement and rejoice in His unconditional love. (Nelson, Russell M. General Conference, October 1991) John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Sons of perdition
This I have read, but what about the broad way which we are told will be followed by many? Stacy. At 03:52 PM 11/08/2003 -0500, you wrote: I have some quotes here, which will show that one must do more than receive the Holy Ghost and reject it to become a candidate for perdition. You will see that one must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened up, know God, and then totally and completely rebel. Gary Mormon Doctrine tells us about sons of perdition: Disobedience See CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE, OBEDIENCE, REBELLION. Nonconformity to divine standards of personal righteousness constitutes disobedience. All men are either obedient or disobedient; they either keep the commandments or fail to do so; either neglect or refusal to conform to gospel standards classifies a person as a rebel. Disobedience is of the devil, That wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the traditions of their fathers. (DC 93:39) By disobedience men gain membership in the kingdom of the devil, as he operates it on earth, in the spirit world, and among the resurrected rebels of eternity. The most violent and destructive of all disobedience is the complete and open rebellion against light and truth which makes a person a son of perdition. Those who love darkness rather than light, their deeds being evil, receive their wages of whom they list to obey. (DC 29:45 in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, we read: In LDS scripture Lucifer and cain are called Perdition, meaning destruction (DC 76:; moses 5:Moses 4:1-4) and mortals who commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost will inherit the same condition as Lucifer and Cain, and thus are called sons of perdition. 1391Perdition is both a place and a spiritual condition. As a place, it is synonymous with that hell to which both unembodied and resurrected sons of perdition will be consigned following the last judgment ( Ne. 28:23; DC 29:38; TPJS, p. 361). This future kingdom of the devil will be devoid of any of the Spirit and glory of God. (DC 88:24). Sons of perdition are not merely wicked; they are incorrigibly evil. In sinning against the revelations of the Holy Ghost, they have sinned against the greater light and knowledge of God. They willfully and utterly pervert principles of righteousness and truth with which they were once endowed, and transform them into principles of evil and deception. Joseph Smith declared, You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance (TPJS, p. 358). No divine principle can cleanse the sons of perdition; following the last judgment, they will remain filthy still (DC 29:44DC 29:44;DC 88:35 88:35). It is revealed that it had been better for them never to have been born (DC 76:32DC 76:32). AND Unpardonable Sin 1499The gravest of all sins is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. One may speak even against Jesus Christ in ignorance and, upon repentance, be forgiven, but knowingly to sin against the Holy Ghost by denying its influence after having received it is unpardonable (matt. 12:31matt. 12:32Matt. 12:31-32; jacob 7:19Jacob 7:19; alma 39:6Alma 39:6), and the consequences are inescapable. Such denial dooms the perpetrator to the hell of the second spiritual death (TPJS, p. 361). This extreme judgment comes because the person sins knowingly against the light, thereby severing himself from the redeeming grace of Christ. He is numbered with the sons of perdition (DC 76:43DC 76:43). 1499The Prophet Joseph Smith explained, No man can commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, nor in this life, until he receives the Holy Ghost (TPJS, p. 357). To commit the unpardonable sin, a person must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him . he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened to him, and to deny the Plan of Salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it (TPJS, p. 358; cf. heb. 10:26heb. 10:27heb. 10:28heb. 10:29Heb. 10:26-29). AND Ultimate and total damnation comes only to the devil and his angels, who rebelled in the first estate, and to the sons of perdition, who are damned eternally and denied entrance into any kingdom of glory hereafter (DC 76:32). The sons of perdition are those guilty of unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost (DC 132:27); cf. mark 3:29), which includes the willful denial of the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame (DC 76:35). And All except the sons of perdition will eventually accept Christ and obey him, and thereby escape the dominion of Satan (DC 76:110). Thus is the Father's plan of agency fulfilled. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// ///
Re: [ZION] Holy Spirit of Promise
Kent gives it as his opinion: The HSofP is the Holy Ghost. He seals/ratifies ordinances. Calling and Election Made Sure is to have diety tell you that it is so. It comes after testing to prove that you will never aposticise. It allows you to receive the 2nd comforter (personal visits from Christ) and receive the 2nd annointing ordinance. See TPJS pg 150 John W. Redelfs wrote: Is having ones Calling and Election Made Sure and being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise the same thing? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] How to Become a Gospel Scholar
I would sincerely like to do this but I fear the time is too short for it. Stacy. At 05:10 AM 11/11/2003 +, you wrote: Here's a paper addressing that topic from John Welch. He is not a general authority, but is certainly a gospel scholar with few peers. http://www.byui.edu/Ricks/employee/ALLREDP/Assignments-Gospel%20Scholarship/Welch%20on%20Gospel%20Scholarship.htm; // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Signs Yet to Come
Very convincing. I'm sure that if there was a physical mark everyone would be able to see it and try to stay clear of it. But it is interesting that men have given up on the cause for food. What about Esau and others like him? Stacy. At 07:36 AM 11/11/2003 -0700, you wrote: At 07:11 PM 11/10/2003, JWR wrote: 19. No man can buy or sell without the mark of the beast Just what is the mark of the beast? Is it an actual physical bio-chip, as most fundamental Baptists or Christian fundamentalists believe? Or does it mean something else. Below are my thoughts, in an essay I once wrote upon the subject: 666: OF MEN, MARKS, BEASTS AND THE SEALING POWER! By: Steven Montgomery One of the overarching themes of the Book of Revelation deals with the victory that Jesus Christ and the righteous have over Satan, Babylon and mankind's twin nemesis, both Spiritual and Physical Death. The righteous, we are informed by Revelation 15:2 are those who gain victory over the Beast and thus qualify to live on this earth in its Celestial Glory. It's interesting to note that those who accept Christ and overcome Satan are sealed up unto eternal life by having Christ's name written on their foreheads (see Rev. 7:3 and 22:4). Under the law of Moses the Israelites were commanded to wear phylacteries on their hands or frontlets upon their foreheads which were little boxes that contained certain scriptures written inside them as a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's law may be in thy mouth or in other words that the righteous were to treasure up the words of Christ in their heart and soul and to physically bind these items on their hands or foreheads as a sign of this fact (see Exodus 13:9,16; Deut. 6:8; 11:18). Satan, as the great counterfeiter, also seals his followers with a mark in their hand or forehead. But what is this mark and what does it represent? Is it an actual physical mark or merely symbolic? What characterizes those who have the mark? As a result of the fall of Adam and without the atonement of Jesus Christ, man is carnal sensual and devilish. Thus Satan causes ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond to receive his mark in their right hand or in their forehead. Since this is a mark which affects all mankind it clearly cannot be an actual physical one. It is symbolic. Thus It represents man in his mortal state and without the atonement of Jesus Christ, who truly cannot buy or sell without the mark of Satan (see Rev. 13:16-18; 14:1, 9-11; 17:5). It is also significant to note in Rev. 14:9-11, that those who thus follow Satan and receive his mark on their forehead or hand, suffer the wrath of God, are tormented with fire and brimstone, and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever--quite a punishment just for accepting a mark for food, as the christian fundamentalists believe, especially if one did so without knowledge or innocently! Reading these scriptures in context just doesn't bear this viewpoint up. It should be obvious that the punishment mentioned here is the hell that all of Satan's followers receive after the last judgment. Also of note is the mention in Rev. 17:5 that spiritual Babylon will have the words MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH written on her forehead. Do the Christian fundamentalists really believe that there will be a great Babylon arise up with these literal words on her forehead? Well, what about the number of the beasts name, 666? Consistent with Moses 6:63, which states that all things are created and made to bear record of Christ, or in some manner testifying of the gospel plan, the number 6 to the Jews represented Man under sin. For example man was created on the 6th day. Cain's descendants are listed to the 6th generation. There are 66 generations listed from King David to Joseph. The Man of Sin or Satan is represented by the number 666. The 6th letter of the Hebrew Alphabet is the letter vav which is the sign of the nail. Symbolically, the numeral 6 when written or printed, appears to signify a coiled snake--ready to strike. The number 7, on the other hand, represented God's seal, often called the perfect number by the ancients. For example, god sanctified the 7th day and blessed it. The week has 7 days. The 7th day was the Old Testament Holy Day or Sabbath. Joshua ordered his people to march around Jericho 7 days with 7 priests, and 7 times on the 7th day. 7 is also significant in the natural creation. The musical scale has 7 full notes. Pure light is broken into 7 colors by a prism or rainbow. Jesus Christ received 7 wounds on his body. Furthermore, in connection with the number 666, It's interesting to consider that the jewish cabalistic magic square (those square mathematical puzzles which when added up either horizontally or vertically add up to the same number) of the sun (or Son!)
Re: [ZION] blood red moon
The Seventh-day Adventists with whom I also used to belong considered these events to already have been fulfilled. I don't know. Stacy. At 08:10 AM 11/07/2003 -0600, you wrote: Hello all... I read a bit on cnn.com this morning about the upcoming lunar eclipse this weekend and how the moon is supposed to turn blood red. To quote the article: Saturday's lunar eclipse will be followed by the Leonid meteor shower, a total solar eclipse over the southern hemisphere -- and a chance for more auroras if the sun stays active. Another eruption Tuesday on the sun ranked among the most intense solar events ever recorded. But the explosion was aimed away from Earth, meaning it would have little impact here. What think ye? Do you think this *means* anything? Just curious... Heidi the fair // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
My churches always taught no sexual union before marriage and no extramarital affairs either. It's what they didn't teach about the other doctrines I've come to appreciate. Stacy. At 06:12 PM 11/06/2003 -0900, you wrote: Jim Cobabe wrote: John W. Redelfs wrote: --- How can we teach 1) that all the other churches contain some truth, and 2) that we are the only true church? The two statements are not incompatible, but they might easily be confused by those of inadequate education. --- I believe it is being done as we speak. Do you see the current missionary program as compromised or ineffective? Looks like it is working well to me. I agree. There is no inadequacy in the missionary program. OTOH as long as I've been online I have run across members, often of long standing or even born in the Church, who seem to feel that one church is about as good as another, and that this one is extraordinary only because it is the one they grew up in. This isn't just the best church, it is the ONLY one that teaches correct doctrine. I'm not against the truth that I see preached in other churches. I'm all for it. I just don't see nearly as much as I see here. And the gap is much wider in my perception than it is for most of the saints. By contrast, those in other churches are in desperate need of our missionaries because their gospel isn't much improved over the philosophies of men that they could learn down at the corner pub. For an example, it astounds me that many Protestant congregations never teach the value or desirability of chastity before marriage and fidelity after marriage. They don't teach tithing or Sabbath observance. A lot of them don't even teach their members how to pray, or the importance of repentance. I guess I just get defensive when others seem unaware of HOW blessed we are to have the guidance of true prophets. Then I hear them defending these other denominations, and I'm afraid they just don't understand how fortunate they are. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Catholics Mormons unite
I'll have to remember this one. The fact is that some people are confused and do not feel they are being totally taught correctly on this point. I have a friend who took the missionary discussions and decided not to join. Because missionaries are taught not to put down any other churches they may mistakenly be too soft about the need for a restoration. I've seen confusion. Stacy. At 01:57 PM 11/06/2003 -0500, you wrote: On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:14:18 -0900 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is a concern that I have, probably a futile concern. How can we teach 1) that all the other churches contain some truth, and 2) that we are the only true church? The two statements are not incompatible, but they might easily be confused by those of inadequate education. --JWR I find that an anology usually works, especially for those of inadequate education. First, though, the word true can mean many things. Here, I believe it is used to mean genuine, or exact, conforming to a standard. My favorite anology here is the broken mirror. When the great apostasy occured, the mirror (ie The TRUE/GENUINE/EXACTING Gospel) was shattered. Churches were built from the fragments that were left (thus SOME truth). When Joseph Smith restored the Gospel and had all the keys handed to him, he had, once again, a complete mirror--thus the only TRUE/GENUINE/EXACTING church. val .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Introduction
I love the man and think he is the closest to Jesus Christ that I have ever seen. Stacy. At 10:34 PM 11/03/2003 -0500, you wrote: Friends: Like me, some of you may suffer from increasingly short-term memory loss and others here don't know me at all. So an introduction. Perhaps the best personal introduction is embodied in a message I recently sent to the members of Mormon-L, responding to a request that I comment on President Hinckley's ego. -Original Message- From: Christian Kamler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 9:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Mormon-l] General Conference Ø I wonder if Ron could comment on his impressions of the man with regard to ego. Some have felt there is some possibility of that. --Ron Scott Responds-- I'm not sure whether the last sentence above refers to President Hinckley's ego, or that some here felt I may be willing to share my impressions of him. I'll assume it's a reference to both. Some background: GBH was my dad's seminary teacher at South High; after serving a mission to Brazil (and Navy, for The Big WWII) my dad served under him on a team assigned to translate the DC, TPOGP, into Portuguese; GBH was a counselor in the stake presidency when our family moved to East Millcreek in 1955; my dad briefly tutored his oldest daughter, in chemistry; his middle daughter, Virginia (Virginia Hinckley Pearce), was my closest friend in high school and early college (a short-story I wrote about her in college launched my career as a writer) and, as a result, I have spent many hours in the Hinckley home, tended the younger Hinckley children; since college, as a journalist I have had several professional encounters (in NYC and SLC) with GBH, directly and indirectly; Wendall Ashton, GBH's life-long friend and former missionary companion and church public communications director, former publisher of the Deseret News, was a good friend of mine as well (his daughter was also a close friend in high school/college). So to the question: Does GBH have an ego? The answer: Don't we all? The implied question: Does GBH have an out-sized ego? The answer: No. Would he be delighted if the new conference center was renamed in his honor after he's gone? Assuming hes in a condition to be delighted about anything, I'd imagine the answer would be yes. I'd be delighted if the Powers That Be selected the alternative name: The Scott Conference Center -- in honor of my father, of course. Seriously, he has never impressed me as being arrogant (I can't say that of others I know in the FP and Q12). But determined and confidant and pragmatic? Yes. Absolutely yes. Does he have a testimony of God? Yes he does. I have heard him pray at home many times. No audience. It was like listening to one side of a telephone conversation between old friends. And, as I wrote above, he is pragmatic. Although I cant verify the authenticity of the account of his meeting in the temple with bishops and stake presidents, the report is consistent with what I sensed of his approach to the gospel. To wit and I paraphrase: take it one step at a time, apply what you know to be true hoping that it will lead you to the next discovery of truth; if the Joseph Smith story leaves you cold, focus on/apply what he taught it will make you a better man, father, citizen. I sensed that his pragmatic approach to the gospel may have been the root cause of his reaction to the Salamander letter. My words: he may have been so familiar with the hocus-pocus elements of our history, that he figured the forged (as it turned out) document could be yet another troublesome historical artifact. As he was more interested in the good the gospel does in the lives of people, he may have felt it was his responsibility to eliminate or suppress something that may turn away people who would otherwise benefit greatly by applying the gospel in their everyday lives. I seek not to justify his reaction to the letter it puzzled me as much as it did anyone however I do think pragmatism and doing the greater good may have driven and shaped his reaction. Some would love it if he would openly forsake the magical aspects of church history. Some would love it if more focus was placed on the practical aspects of Mormonism rather than the things that are harder to swallow. Of course some gripe that so much has been changed and ignored, that were getting rather too much like the Anglicans and Presbyterians. I mean, whod-a-thunk there would be an official lesson finally clarifying the grace business (I havent read the lesson, but Ill bet I can guess its central message: but for Christs freely-granted grace, we would be toast, no matter our good works). Liberals gripe that GBH is The Flack-meister, the personification of the organization man; fundamentalists and conservatives worry that he fits the description of a Korihor or Signaturi, the proverbial wolf in sheeps clothing. And
