Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
But the Book of Mormon is still the Word of God, right? --JWR The Iron Rod is the Word of God! (Like my voice??) Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
JWR: --- Hate the sin and love the sinner. I understand that. But why do I have to be accepting of a false church in order to be loving towards its deluded, lied to, and oppressed members? I can love a Catholic without loving his church. The same goes for a Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Buddhist or Moslem. Reading 2 Nephi 28 and then reading these Internet email discussion lists, Zion included, causes me considerable cognitive dissonance. --- Yes, I suppose the bottom line is that today we must make an extra effort to distinguish between the people who belong to other churches and the formal institutions that constitute those other churches. This is definitely more of a challenge than simply blasting everyone who differs from us. While we continue to unequivocally condemn false and vain and foolish doctrines, yet we recognize those people as our brothers and sisters, prospective converts to the true Gospel of Christ, potential Latter-day Saints. We don't seek to antagonize or alienate these potential members of the true Church by focusing primarily on their faults. I guess the thinking is that we can win the hearts of more men by gentleness, meekness, and love unfeigned. Perhaps, as the scriptures suggest, this has always been the right approach. Apparently the sword of truth can be a soft touch at appropriate times, in contrast to more heavy-handed dividing asunder kind of action. ;-) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
- Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 12:39 AM Subject: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance Esperanza and I were reading the Book of Mormon this evening and I came upon a chapter that just doesn't seem to harmonize with current list and Church attitudes towards other churches. Aren't we supposed to liken the scriptures unto ourselves? Sometimes it is pretty hard. Without digging into my scriptures for the exact quotes, consider the actions of the sons of Mosiah going to serve and live among the Lamanites in a spirit of love and sacrifice. Talk about cognitive dissidence. Do you think their friends, both the ones they had when they were apostate and the ones they gained when they repented, understood them? Everyone was used to fixing the Lamanite problem with war and these boys had a better idea. I think the current Church leadership has a better idea too. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
Tom wrote: Talk about cognitive dissidence. Tom comments: I wish I could say that this malopropism was intentional. But I'm typing in the dark here at 4:00 a.m. and the spell checker kept telling me to change Lamanites to laminates and that's all I was thinking about at the time and this got by me. But it is appropriate in a discussion of the sons of Mosiah anyway. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
At 04:19 AM 11/4/03 -0700, Tom Matkin wrote: I wish I could say that this malopropism was intentional. But I'm typing in the dark here at 4:00 a.m. and the spell checker kept telling me to change Lamanites to laminates That's what happens when a Native American with Jewish ancestry is working at a plastics plant and falls in to one of the vats . . . you get a laminated Lamanite . . . -- Ronn! :) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
Tom Matkin wrote: Without digging into my scriptures for the exact quotes, consider the actions of the sons of Mosiah going to serve and live among the Lamanites in a spirit of love and sacrifice. Talk about cognitive dissidence. Do you think their friends, both the ones they had when they were apostate and the ones they gained when they repented, understood them? Everyone was used to fixing the Lamanite problem with war and these boys had a better idea. I think the current Church leadership has a better idea too. But the Book of Mormon is still the Word of God, right? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
John-- I have to take exception to your comments, and need to ponder this passage of scripture a bit more, for neither fit my experience with my previous church. the Presbyterian Church did nothing but prepare me to accept the fullness of the Gospel when I heard it. maybe I was not diligent enough to merit being exposed to their opposition to the LDS Church? maybe too young to recognize lies and deceit when I heard it? or any number of other things, but the bottom line is that they lined me up to accept the fullness of the Gospel. what's wrong with that? Bob Taylor Esperanza and I were reading the Book of Mormon this evening and I came upon a chapter that just doesn't seem to harmonize with current list and Church attitudes towards other churches. Aren't we supposed to liken the scriptures unto ourselves? Sometimes it is pretty hard. --- 2 Nephi Chapter 28 Many false churches shall be built up in the last days---They shall teach false and vain and foolish doctrines---Apostasy shall abound because of false teachers---The devil shall rage in the hearts of men---He shall teach all manner of false doctrines. [...] 3. For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord's; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord's' and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord--- [...] 9. Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. 10. And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. 11. Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted. --- I understood all of this when I left the Baptist Church. That is why I became a Mormon. But today if I say anything like the Lord is saying in this chapter of 2 Nephi, I get a big argument and someone invariably starts talking about how these other churches prepare people for our missionaries. Well, I don't see it that way. These other churches are the whole reason there was a Great Apostasy in the first place. These false churches are the only reason there was any need for a Restoration. They don't prepare others for membership in our Church, except possibly by setting a bad example, one to be avoided by converting to Mormonism. They do the very best they can to prepare their members to slam their doors in our faces when our missionaries come knocking. Where have I gone wrong? Why can't I get all luvy-duvy towards these other churches the way so many of my fellow saints are? Why does 2 Nephi 28 seem so true to me and all the go along to get along talk that I hear among my fellow saints sounds so much like a slick politician that wants everybody to like him? I'm sick of hearing about how much truth there is in these other churches. I want to hear someone call them what they are: false churches. That is what the Book of Mormon calls them. Hate the sin and love the sinner. I understand that. But why do I have to be accepting of a false church in order to be loving towards its deluded, lied to, and oppressed members? I can love a Catholic without loving his church. The same goes for a Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Buddhist or Moslem. Reading 2 Nephi 28 and then reading these Internet email discussion lists, Zion included, causes me considerable cognitive dissonance. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ** There are no coincidences, only small miracles. Author Unknown ** // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
- But the Book of Mormon is still the Word of God, right? --JWR Yes. And it tells us all about the sons of Mosiah doesn't it? How they received a great promise of safety from the Lord for their mission of love and service and how they enjoyed miraculous success among a lost and fallen people by being kind and loving and offering something much better and sharper than the sword of war and contention. The Lord warns us in the passages you quote not to settle for less, not to adopt lesser creeds or accept for ourselves counterfeits to the real truth. He does it forcefully. But there is ample evidence that he loves everyone, that he wants us to love an serve each other, regardless of our religion. He is Father to us all and values everyone. Certainly the book of Mormon asks us not to touch the unclean thing and come out from the world and gather as a covenant people, but that does not change the fact that all men are brothers of the same spiritual father, and because of the gift of agency no one can be forced to accept the gospel in its fullness. So what's the best way to influence a free agent. Love him. Remember my own mantra, whatever the question, the answer is love. I think President Hinckley operates like that. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
Tom Matkin wrote: So what's the best way to influence a free agent. Love him. Remember my own mantra, whatever the question, the answer is love. I think President Hinckley operates like that. Well, I guess I'll just have to love you into seeing what I see about false churches. Missing Elder McConkie, John W. Redelfs // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
-Original Message- From: Ronn! Blankenship [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 6:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance At 04:19 AM 11/4/03 -0700, Tom Matkin wrote: I wish I could say that this malopropism was intentional. But I'm typing in the dark here at 4:00 a.m. and the spell checker kept telling me to change Lamanites to laminates That's what happens when a Native American with Jewish ancestry is working at a plastics plant and falls in to one of the vats . . . you get a laminated Lamanite . . . Trust Ronn! to finally make sense of what actually happened. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
-Original Message- From: Tom Matkin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance - But the Book of Mormon is still the Word of God, right? --JWR Yes. And it tells us all about the sons of Mosiah doesn't it? How they received a great promise of safety from the Lord for their mission of love and service and how they enjoyed miraculous success among a lost and fallen people by being kind and loving and offering something much better and sharper than the sword of war and contention. The Lord warns us in the passages you quote not to settle for less, not to adopt lesser creeds or accept for ourselves counterfeits to the real truth. He does it forcefully. But there is ample evidence that he loves everyone, that he wants us to love an serve each other, regardless of our religion. He is Father to us all and values everyone. Certainly the book of Mormon asks us not to touch the unclean thing and come out from the world and gather as a covenant people, but that does not change the fact that all men are brothers of the same spiritual father, and because of the gift of agency no one can be forced to accept the gospel in its fullness. So what's the best way to influence a free agent. Love him. Remember my own mantra, whatever the question, the answer is love. I think President Hinckley operates like that. Tom Tom, I like the way you think. Although, all things considered, I'd like to think President Hinckley argues to be in the world, but not of it. Which is not a bad place to be if you can do it. Ron // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
Tom, I like the way you think. Although, all things considered, I'd like to think President Hinckley argues to be in the world, but not of it. Which is not a bad place to be if you can do it. Ron I agree with that, but I was obliquely referencing the exhortation in Moroni 10: 30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing. 31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled. 32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. There is very real necessity for the covenant Saints of God to separate themselves from worldly things, if not the world, in a very real way. We can't touch the unclean things, and we know what they are, without trouble. Elder Quentin L. Cook touched on this in the last conference in his memorable address: Are You a Saint? He defined what I meant by being separate from the world. Here's a portion of that talk: Quote Mode On: The word saint in Greek denotes set apart, separate, [and] holy. 4 If we are to be Saints in our day, we need to separate ourselves from evil conduct and destructive pursuits that are prevalent in the world. We are bombarded with visual images of violence and immorality. Inappropriate music and pornography are increasingly tolerated. The use of drugs and alcohol is rampant. There is less emphasis on honesty and character. Individual rights are demanded, but duties, responsibilities, and obligations are neglected. There has been a coarsening of dialogue and increased exposure to that which is base and vulgar. The adversary has been relentless in his efforts to undermine the plan of happiness. If we separate ourselves from this worldly conduct, we will have the Spirit in our lives and experience the joy of being worthy Latter-day Saints. As Saints, we also need to avoid the worship of worldly gods. President Hinckley has expressed the desire that everyone might have some of the good things of life but has cautioned, It is the obsession with riches that cankers and destroys. 5 In 1630 John Winthrop set forth a vision for the new land (America) on behalf of his fellow passengers as he sailed on board the Arbella. It has become known as The City upon a Hill sermon. In the final paragraph, Winthrop references Deuteronomy 30 [Deut. 30] and warns against worshiping and serving other gods-particularly emphasizing pleasures, and profits. 6 In the recent past President Kimball counseled that even homes, boats, credentials, titles, and other similar pursuits can be worshiped as idols when they entice us away from love and service to God. 7 The prophet Moroni, speaking of our day, warned about the love of money and substance and suggested that we would love them more than we love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted. 8 If we are to be worthy Saints, we should minister to others and adhere to the Savior's admonition to love God and our fellowmen. Separation from the evils of the world needs to be accompanied by holiness. A Saint loves the Savior and follows Him in holiness and devotion. 9 Evidence of this kind of holiness and devotion is exemplified by consecration and sacrifice. President Hinckley has taught, Without sacrifice there is no true worship of God. 10 Sacrifice is the crowning test of the gospel. It means consecrating time, talents, energy, and earthly possessions to further the work of God. In Doctrine and Covenants 97, verse 8 [DC 97:8], it concludes, All . who . are willing to observe their covenants by sacrifice-yea, every sacrifice which I, the Lord, shall command-they are accepted of me. Saints who respond to the Savior's message will not be led astray by distracting and destructive pursuits and will be prepared to make appropriate sacrifices. The importance of sacrifice to those who want to be Saints is exemplified by the atoning sacrifice of the Savior, which is at the center of the gospel. 11 End of Quote: Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
RE: [ZION] Cognitive Dissonance
Ron Scott wrote: Well, I guess I'll just have to love you into seeing what I see about false churches. Missing Elder McConkie, John W. Redelfs Thank goodness for living prophets. You couldn't have said it any better, Ron. You are a good man. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
