Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Well, then, if I am on an eternal progression, how come my current house is smaller than my previous home (although the lack of a current mortgage is a nice by-product!). And does this mean that I've been PO'ed? :-) Jon Paul Osborne wrote: Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression? Are we being lied to? Jon No, we are not being lied to. You just don't understand what eternal progression is, Jon. It is a state of never ending progress as worlds come and go. The size of heavenly Father's kingdom grows with each passing eternity and that is great progress. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Sorry, but your stating a specific definition does not make it so. The prophets and the scriptures tell me something different than they tell you. Good thing we have a prophet to sort things out for us! And I'll bet that GBH would not think that this specific discussion was high on his list to referee! Jon Stephen Beecroft wrote: -George- When God created this universe -Jon- He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized. Big difference! The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God did, indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be organized is what create means, just like when you create an email or a songwriter creates a song. George is right in his usage. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
And just to add a little something, this is not what I believe we are taught in the temple. Jon - Original Message - From: Paul Osborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law I agree with with Stephen. Paul O On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:39:41 + Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: -George- When God created this universe -Jon- He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized. Big difference! The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God did, indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be organized is what create means, just like when you create an email or a songwriter creates a song. George is right in his usage. Stephen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
No, it means you've been humbled, which is spiritual progression... Jon Spencer wrote: Well, then, if I am on an eternal progression, how come my current house is smaller than my previous home (although the lack of a current mortgage is a nice by-product!). And does this mean that I've been PO'ed? :-) Jon Paul Osborne wrote: Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression? Are we being lied to? Jon No, we are not being lied to. You just don't understand what eternal progression is, Jon. It is a state of never ending progress as worlds come and go. The size of heavenly Father's kingdom grows with each passing eternity and that is great progress. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
The term eternal progression does not occur in either scripture nor early church literature. What does that tell us? Is it a term like *free* agency when *moral* agency is the correct term? George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 10:25 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law No, it means you've been humbled, which is spiritual progression... Jon Spencer wrote: Well, then, if I am on an eternal progression, how come my current house is smaller than my previous home (although the lack of a current mortgage is a nice by-product!). And does this mean that I've been PO'ed? :-) Jon Paul Osborne wrote: Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression? Are we being lied to? Jon No, we are not being lied to. You just don't understand what eternal progression is, Jon. It is a state of never ending progress as worlds come and go. The size of heavenly Father's kingdom grows with each passing eternity and that is great progress. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. - Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Geez, I have lost track of who is arguing what and why? The original point was that as God created/organized the world He also created/organized the law that governed it. To criticize me for using a word that you object to, when I capitulated and used your word (organize) instead of the scriptural term, does not make sense, nor does it promote careful discussion. Why push the point? Listen to the message given rather than the words used. I know that words are important, but the message is even more so. But if it is fun for you to worry about which word you insist is crucial - go for it. George - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 9:33 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law -George- When God created this universe -Jon- He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized. Big difference! -Stephen- The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God did, indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be organized is what create means, just like when you create an email or a songwriter creates a song. George is right in his usage. -Jon- Sorry, but your stating a specific definition does not make it so. Nor does your so stating. So let's use a neutral, reliable third party's definition. How do the scriptures use the term create? How do the prophets use it? What does the dictionary say? (American or Canadian, your choice.) The prophets and the scriptures tell me something different than they tell you. Impossible. One of us must not be hearing correctly. And since the scriptures clearly state the God created the heavens and the earth, in this case I don't think I'm the one with the earwax buildup... Q-Tips, anyone? Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
No, it doesn't. You are creating doctrine that does not exist. Apostasy alert! Apostasy alert! :-) Jon George the Babe wrote: As God is, man may become by obeying the laws that God (created) to (allow us to) become God. Just a little change. :-) Then it becomes a truly correct statement. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
George the Babe wrote: When God created this universe, and this world, He created the Laws by which things work, which may be the same as what His Father created or they may be different. The bottom line is that our Father is responsible for the Laws by which we live. He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized. Big difference! Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression? Are we being lied to? Jon Paul Osborne wrote: There is much to learn. To complete the task requires an eternity on the job. Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have ended. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression? Are we being lied to? Jon No, we are not being lied to. You just don't understand what eternal progression is, Jon. It is a state of never ending progress as worlds come and go. The size of heavenly Father's kingdom grows with each passing eternity and that is great progress. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
-George- When God created this universe -Jon- He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized. Big difference! The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God did, indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be organized is what create means, just like when you create an email or a songwriter creates a song. George is right in his usage. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Jon Spencer favored us with: Then, my friend, what is meant by the term eternal progression? Are we being lied to? Even though God is truly omniscient, and hence knows EVERYTHING and can no longer learn new things, he progresses by bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of his children. His progression will continue forever inasmuch as his posterity will continue forever. This is the doctrine taught by Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie, and many others among the Brethren during this past century. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word puke. But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Stephen Beecroft favored us with: The prophets and the scriptures are unanimous in declaring that God did, indeed, create the heavens and the earth. Cause to be organized is what create means, just like when you create an email or a songwriter creates a song. George is right in his usage. Not when he uses it to mean create from nothing which is how the world uses the term. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Jon, there is no difference. In our theology creation means to organize. At least that is what I meant. :-) However, He was still the one that organized the Law for this universe. George - Original Message - From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law George the Babe wrote: When God created this universe, and this world, He created the Laws by which things work, which may be the same as what His Father created or they may be different. The bottom line is that our Father is responsible for the Laws by which we live. He did not create this universe. He caused it to be organized. Big difference! Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
At 20:41 12/19/2002 +, Gib Mij wrote: Paul Osborne wrote: --- Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have ended. --- Yes, and I certainly hope you will have completed your home*[teaching]*work by then! Till who inserted his editorial above 8)) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Paul Osborne favored us with: Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have ended. This is correct. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Redelfs' Commentary: God became God by obedience to pre-existing, coeternal law. And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same path that he took. The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God is a Protestant idea. It is not the gospel. I do not believe that anyone is suggesting that God make up the law by which He became God. That is, of course, nonsense, His Father created the laws by which our Father lived his mortal life. When God created this universe, and this world, He created the Laws by which things work, which may be the same as what His Father created or they may be different. The bottom line is that our Father is responsible for the Laws by which we live. My earlier, rather lengthy, post suggested several reasons, in the quotes provided, why many people agree with the idea that our God is uniquely responsible for the laws by which we must operate. What did you think of their arguments? George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:18 AM Subject: RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law Jim Cobabe favored us with: He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, by which they move in their times and their seasons;(DC 88:41-42) Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.3, OMNIPOTENT GOD; OMNIPRESENCE OF GOD; OMNISCIENCE OF GOD However, the Church does not understand this term in the traditional sense of absoluteness, and, on the authority of modern revelation, rejects the classical doctrine of creation out of nothing. It affirms, rather, that there are actualities that are coeternal with the persons of the Godhead, INCLUDING ELEMENTS, INTELLIGENCE, AND LAW (DC 93:29, 33, 35: 88:34-40). Omnipotence, therefore, cannot coherently be understood as absolutely unlimited power. That view is internally self-contradictory and, given the fact that evil and suffering are real, not reconcilable with God's omnibenevolence or loving kindness (see Theodicy). DC 93:29 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. Bibliography: Roberts, B. H. The Doctrine of Deity. Seventy's Course in Theology, third year. Salt Lake City, 1910. --- Redelfs' Commentary: God became God by obedience to pre-existing, coeternal law. And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same path that he took. The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God is a Protestant idea. It is not the gospel. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Mij wrote: The idea, as Joseph Smith might say, feels good to me. Didn't Joseph talk about how truth tasted good to him? That was provocative enough for me to remember it. Maybe he said feels good too. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44, p.354 Quote (emphasis added): The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. This is good doctrine. It *tastes good*. I can *taste* the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to my by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, *you taste them*, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also *taste* the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given my by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more. Close Quote Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Tom Matkin wrote: --- Didn't Joseph talk about how truth tasted good to him? That was provocative enough for me to remember it. Maybe he said feels good too. --- In Lehi's Tree of Life vision he declares that the fruit of the tree is most desirable and sweet. Alma's discourse on faith (Alma 32) also uses this metaphor. And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst. Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you. (Alma 32:42-43.) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Redelfs' Commentary: God became God by obedience to pre-existing, coeternal law. And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same path that he took. The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God is a Protestant idea. It is not the gospel. Amen! I can see that John has it figured out. I couldn't have said it better my self. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Paul Osborne wrote: --- Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have ended. --- Yes, and I certainly hope you will have completed your homework by then! :-) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Jim Cobabe wrote: I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject to natural law in the same sense that we are. To put it thus incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause. Ah, there's a crucial difference there: that we are. I would agree with your modified statement, but then that's not quite what I wrote originally. We don't know what it means to say that God is subject to natural law because we are only beginning to understand the laws that govern our realm, let alone any realm that transcends ours. But the statement itself, without the qualification, is from Joseph Smith. God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of His power--the laws are subordinate to Him. They are becase He is. He acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because He is subject to natural law, but because natural laws are _His_ laws. Hmm, I'll have to think about that one. I'm not sure I'd agree with your statement as it's written. I think he's subject to a natural law that is higher than the ones we're subject to. But he's still subject to *some* kind of natural law. A parallel is our unique claim that spirit is refined matter. That means it's matter, but it's not what Paul would call corruptible, but rather incorruptible. What does that mean? We don't really know yet. He is the ultimate source--not a subject. This is where you can fall into a word trap if you're not careful. St. Anselm is best known for what's known in philosophy as the ontological argument for the existence of God. But Anselm believed in creatio ex nihilo and that God was the prime mover. His argument was that for our world to have come into being, there had to be a being behind its creation. But we don't believe in this -- we certainly believe God created the world, I'm not disputing that, but we don't believe God is the ultimate cause in the philosophical sense. We believe that God was once as we are, which implies all kinds of things. Those implications, which many early brethren speculated about, are exactly that: speculations. But it's clear that we do not share the Roman church's philosophical foundations with respect to the nature of God. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Give me some time John and I think I can demonstrate that this is not necessarily so. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law Jim Cobabe favored us with: I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject to natural law in the same sense that we are. To put it thus incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause. God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of His power--the laws are subordinate to Him. They are becase He is. He acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because He is subject to natural law, but because natural laws are _His_ laws. It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because God. Remember, he was once a mortal man. The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea. It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
You've said it much more coherently and succinctly than I did. Thanks. As I've explained in a separate post to Stephen, it depends on what you mean by natural law. There are, I think, two connotations, one an earthly (corruptible) sense and one an eternal (incorruptible) sense, but not magic -- that's Protestantism, as you rightly point out. John W. Redelfs wrote: It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because God. Remember, he was once a mortal man. The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea. It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
We'll give you enough time for you and JWR to become gods, but no longer. We're an impatient bunch, ya know... George Cobabe wrote: Give me some time John and I think I can demonstrate that this is not necessarily so. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law Jim Cobabe favored us with: I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject to natural law in the same sense that we are. To put it thus incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause. God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of His power--the laws are subordinate to Him. They are becase He is. He acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because He is subject to natural law, but because natural laws are _His_ laws. It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because God. Remember, he was once a mortal man. The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea. It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea. It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God. --- One of the problems we encounter in discussing such ideas is the inertia of a massive Catholic and Protestant lexicon, which intrudes everywhere with false ideas and distortions of the truth. The omni words are overburdened in this sense, and it would probably simplify things if we just abandoned them and coined our own ideosyncratic terms with our own unique definitions. Joseph Smith's teachings clearly indicate that our spirits were coeternal with God, from before the beginning of time, but that God instituted the laws in the premortal world which constitute for us the plan of salvation. These are the natural laws to which I make reference. God himself, the Prophet says, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, powers, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. (Teachings, p. 354.) Thus the plan of salvation (of redemption, and of exaltation) comprises all of the laws, ordinances, principles, and doctrines by conformity to which the spirit offspring of God have power to progress to the high state of exaltation enjoyed by the Father. (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966], 575.) He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, by which they move in their times and their seasons;(DC 88:41-42) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
God does what his Father did before him... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
-John- It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because God. My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's comment was that God is subject to 'natural law'. This is demonstrably untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her laws. Physicists now postulate that our universe was born perhaps 13 billion years ago, and that the laws of physics that we observe came into being at that point. If this is the case, then since we Latter-day Saints consider God to have been the creator of this universe, we could certainly imagine that he might have chosen whatever other set of physical laws to exist instead. We might also imagine that, as creator of the universe, he exists in such a state as to be able to effect whatever changes in it that he sees fit -- that is, he is above the universe, not subject to it. He could, for example, travel faster than light, an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us. I don't pretend the above is LDS doctrine. Rather, it is compatible with LDS doctrine, and is the closest I can come to reconciling doctrinal truth with scientific understanding. In any case, I feel quite sure that God is the Lawgiver, the creator of the universe, the God of nature, and thus to claim that he is subject to 'natural law' is incorrect. The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea. Hardly. Protestantism rejects as blasphemous the very idea that God pregressed to become a God, so they certainly have no opinion on whether he created the laws that led to that exaltation! Besides, the laws governing God's exaltation are not the point under discussion; rather, we're talking about natural law and whether God is subject to it. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -John- It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because God. My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's comment was that God is subject to 'natural law'. This is demonstrably untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her laws. It's not demonstrably untrue; I went on to explain that the term had two meanings, and quoted James E. Talmage and Joseph Fielding Smith to illustrate. He could, for example, travel faster than light, an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us. That's my point about telestial law. As Pres. Smith said, he has access to laws we don't understand. But that doesn't make them any less laws. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Jim, as one hammer to another, you have hit the nail right on the head: these words have baggage that we have to be wary of. I don't think any of us here are really disagreeing with each other in substance (to use another word full of ancient baggage), but only in semantics. Jim Cobabe wrote: John W. Redelfs wrote: --- The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea. It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God. --- One of the problems we encounter in discussing such ideas is the inertia of a massive Catholic and Protestant lexicon, which intrudes everywhere with false ideas and distortions of the truth. The omni words are overburdened in this sense, and it would probably simplify things if we just abandoned them and coined our own ideosyncratic terms with our own unique definitions. Joseph Smith's teachings clearly indicate that our spirits were coeternal with God, from before the beginning of time, but that God instituted the laws in the premortal world which constitute for us the plan of salvation. These are the natural laws to which I make reference. God himself, the Prophet says, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, powers, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. (Teachings, p. 354.) Thus the plan of salvation (of redemption, and of exaltation) comprises all of the laws, ordinances, principles, and doctrines by conformity to which the spirit offspring of God have power to progress to the high state of exaltation enjoyed by the Father. (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966], 575.) He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, by which they move in their times and their seasons;(DC 88:41-42) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
I can agree that God is subject to 'natural law, but only in the sense that He has created those laws and needs to maintain the integrity to obey the same rules that He has created. If He did not honor His word or His law He would cease to be God. George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law Stephen Beecroft wrote: -John- It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because God. My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's comment was that God is subject to 'natural law'. This is demonstrably untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her laws. It's not demonstrably untrue; I went on to explain that the term had two meanings, and quoted James E. Talmage and Joseph Fielding Smith to illustrate. He could, for example, travel faster than light, an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us. That's my point about telestial law. As Pres. Smith said, he has access to laws we don't understand. But that doesn't make them any less laws. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. - Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
John, I'm honestly not trying to promote Protestant doctrine. But there are obviously some issues here that merit further consideration. I am sure you realize that we are not necessarily covering new ground in any of our discussions on this list. I have little doubt that the people of this world have been striving to learn the true nature of Heavenly Father since Adam was expelled from the Garden. There is much to learn. To complete the task requires an eternity on the job. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
