Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Alright. Let's start over. What exactly in the US State Dept. press release leads you to a conclusion other than the US got the documents first, when that is explicitly pointed out in the government's own press briefing? If you feel I've ignored a question you've raised, please remind me what it was. Larry Jackson wrote: > Marc Schindler: > > I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not > need to "spin" anything. Here it is again, since you keep > deleting it in your responses, so please either do me the > courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy > (which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error: > > ___ > > And I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. Since > you keep ignoring it in your responses, please either do me > the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy > (which is fine if you're tired of ignoring it) or error. > > You see, you proposed a point, I suggested it might not be > correct, and you tried to blew it off. So at this point, I > am not talking about your point. I am still talking about > my point, if you even remember what it was. > > I'll get to your point after I'm finished with mine. I'm > sorry if I'm a little more simpleminded and can only focus > on one thing at a time. It's an error I often make. > > Larry Jackson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Marc Schindler: I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not need to "spin" anything. Here it is again, since you keep deleting it in your responses, so please either do me the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy (which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error: ___ And I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. Since you keep ignoring it in your responses, please either do me the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy (which is fine if you're tired of ignoring it) or error. You see, you proposed a point, I suggested it might not be correct, and you tried to blew it off. So at this point, I am not talking about your point. I am still talking about my point, if you even remember what it was. I'll get to your point after I'm finished with mine. I'm sorry if I'm a little more simpleminded and can only focus on one thing at a time. It's an error I often make. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not need to "spin" anything. Here it is again, since you keep deleting it in your responses, so please either do me the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy (which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error: === Are you saying that the following doesn't say the US saw it first? "The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10. " Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be made available to other members of the council as soon as possible." And again, in the Q&A session: "Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off. Have you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other Security Council members? " Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I think we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of proliferation-sensitive information, making sure that that was not jeopardized. " So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with that expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see about proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible." Now tell me: how is it possible to do copying for others when you don't have the document yourself to begin with? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Marc Schindler: > > That was not my point at all. Please reread it. ... > You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it. > > ___ > > I'm not criticizing anything. You are ignoring my point and I > am ignoring your bait. > > Spin on. > > Larry Jackson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Marc Schindler: That was not my point at all. Please reread it. ... You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it. ___ I'm not criticizing anything. You are ignoring my point and I am ignoring your bait. Spin on. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Are you saying that the following doesn't say the US saw it first? "The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10. " Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be made available to other members of the council as soon as possible." And again, in the Q&A session: "Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off. Have you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other Security Council members? " Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I think we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of proliferation-sensitive information, making sure that that was not jeopardized. " So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with that expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see about proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible." Now tell me: how is it possible to do copying for others when you don't have the document yourself to begin with? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Marc Schindler: > > This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the > Security Council, but the US still managed to get first crack > at them. An excerpt from the US State Dept. briefing: ... > > ___ > > This just is true, I'm afraid. And your excerpt begins by > saying just what I said. > > That you wish to ascribe special motives to the person > running the copy center is your prerogative. That you feel > the spokesman was not appropriate because the US > didn't do it the way you think it would have been done in > Canada is also your prerogative. > That was not my point at all. Please reread it. It was referring to an earlier thread where some people on this list assumed that Francie Ducros was a "politician" because they were used to seeing presidential and cabinet spokespeople making statements, which doesn't happen in parliamentary systems. > > Enjoy your prerogative. > It's not my prerogative you're criticizing, it's a straw man you're criticizing. You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Marc Schindler: This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the Security Council, but the US still managed to get first crack at them. An excerpt from the US State Dept. briefing: ... ___ This just is true, I'm afraid. And your excerpt begins by saying just what I said. That you wish to ascribe special motives to the person running the copy center is your prerogative. That you feel the spokesman was not appropriate because the US didn't do it the way you think it would have been done in Canada is also your prerogative. Enjoy your prerogative. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the Security Council, but the US still managed to get first crack at them. An excerpt from the US State Dept. briefing: Reeker, the spokesman for the State Department, on 10/12/02: T"he U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10. REEKER SAID ONCE SUCH INFORMATION HAS BEEN DLELETED, A WORKING DOCUMENT WILL BE MADE AVAILABLE TO OTHER MEMBERS OF THE [SECURITY] COUNCIL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. [emphasis added] Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be made available to other members of the council as soon as possible. The United States is going to analyze the declaration with respect to its credibility and compliance with U.N. Security Council resolution 1441, while drawing on the specialized expertise of other declared nuclear states so as to accelerate the review, Reeker said. In keeping with the Security Council president's decision to allow access to the Iraqi declaration to those members of the Security Council with expertise to assess the risks of proliferation and other sensitive information to begin reviewing that document, full copies of the report have been made available to those members of the Council that have that expertise. As we discussed yesterday, the United States assisted by copying this declaration. We had been asked to assure that the document was copied in a controlled environment to guard against the inadvertent release of information. And from the press corps Q&A session: Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off. Have you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other Security Council members? Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I think we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of proliferation-sensitive information, making sure that that was not jeopardized. So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with that expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see about proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible. Now, I could simply be reading this the wrong way, I realize. But it looks pretty evident that the US got the documents first. Incidentally, the other nations with "expertise in this matter" happen to be the other permanent members of the Security Council, but not the rest of the Security Council at present (10 other countries get a turn for I think it's 5 years, on the SC, in rotation. For instance, Canada was on until about a year ago, when Mexico took our place. Gary Smith wrote: > Actually, the permanent members of the Security Council all received it > at the same time. Russia condemned the document at the same time the US > did. It was the temporary members who received the delayed copy, to > ensure classified nuclear information did not slip out into the hands of > non-nuclear countries (like Syria, which is on the Council right now). > K'aya K'ama, > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www > .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html > "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > Marc: > No, Larry -- the U.S. insisted on looking it over first before giving it > to other > permanent members of the Security Council, which is only 5 nations > (technically > speaking, not the "UN" -- that implies the General Assembly). This was > public > news, I'm not making it up. > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick hims
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
No, Larry -- the U.S. insisted on looking it over first before giving it to other permanent members of the Security Council, which is only 5 nations (technically speaking, not the "UN" -- that implies the General Assembly). This was public news, I'm not making it up. Here's a post to an official US state department briefing on the issue: http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/02121208.htm [incidentally, for those who still think the rest of the world operates the way the US does, note that if this were a Canadian government document, the director of communications would not be interviewed by journalists as in this briefing record and Q&A session -- it would be the minister who would be interviewed]. Think, too, that it's in Iraq's best interests to cloud the issue, as it were, by showing this kind of "complication." Incidentally, I've also said that the U.S. won't invade Iraq when push comes to shove -- that while the U.S. administration may in fact be quite sincere in their concern about Iraq, their first priority was the mid-term elections. Now that the Republicans did better than many dared hope, the "need" for a "wag the dog" scenario is fading, and the doves are getting the upper hand. Two complete naval battle groups have started sailing *away* from the Middle East: http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=2B634666-9A17-4525-9558-1FA9C23496BB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Marc Schindler: > > By now I'm sure all of you have heard of the material the > Iraqi government turned over to the Security Council. The > U.S. took it before other Security Council members could > look at it, with the excuse that they wanted to make sure > certain parts having to do with recipes for weapons of > mass destruction didn't get made public. But this > doesn't make sense -- > > ___ > > Of course it doesn't make sense. It didn't happen that way. > > That wasn't the reason, that wasn't the excuse, and the > U.N. kept a copy of the complete document while the U.S. > made more copies for them. > > Larry Jackson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Jon Spencer wrote: > So let me get this straight. First you postulate that the Americans took > the materials first to hide the Pakistani connection. Then you use that > supposition to say "That's what I've been saying all along: Pakistan is far > more dangerous to you than Iraq." > > Did I get this correctly? No. Reread my post. I said the publicly stated, the proximate reason, was so that recipes for CBW didn't make it into the public realm (which is credible). The ultimate reason was that, because of the age of most of the material, there was a danger that the ultimate source of the technology would become public: the USA to Pakistan when Pakistan was its client in South Asia during the Cold War. I'm not suggesting you bomb Pakistan. I'm suggesting you keep your weapons of mass destruction at home. > If so, if your first supposition is incorrect > > > Ah, what the heck. Let's just bomb Pakistan and get it over with. THEN we > can bomb Iraq. No, wait! North Korea first, then - um - Iran! Then > Canada. And THEN Iraq! > > I got it now! > > Jon > > Marc A. Schindler wrote: > > By now I'm sure all of you have heard of the material the Iraqi > government turned over to the Security Council. The U.S. took it before > other Security Council members could look at it, with the excuse that > they wanted to make sure certain parts having to do with recipes for > weapons of mass destruction didn't get made public. But this doesn't > make sense -- all of the countries serving on the Security Council know > how to make CBW. Rumour has it that the real reason the U.S. is going to > censor the Iraqi material is > > because it shows that most of its technology came from Pakistan and > was ultimately paid for by the U.S. taxpayer. > > Sound familiar? That's what I've been saying all along: Pakistan is far > more dangerous to you than Iraq. Another reason, too, but one that's > pretty well out in the public now anyway (there was an article in the > November 02 Harpers about this) is how the US has deliberately > obstructed the petroleum for humanitarian program in order to destroy > the civilian infrastructure of Iraq. The idea seems to be that if the US > makes things in Iraq really, really miserable, that the Iraqis will rise > up against Saddam. Mind you, the U.S. hinted to the Shi'ites in the > south during Gulf War I that if they rose up, they'd get help from the > U.S. but by then Iraq wasn't a US concern anymore, and the Shi'ite > rebellion was brutally put down by Saddam, so one has to wonder how > stupid the US thinks Iraqis are. > > And I have to wonder if, in 5 or 10 years time, some major terrorist > action against the U.S. comes from Iraqis, if you'll remember all this, > or if you'll, once again, just ask "huh? wha' happened?" By then you'll > be blaming Pakistanis. > > You heard it here first. > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Marc Schindler: By now I'm sure all of you have heard of the material the Iraqi government turned over to the Security Council. The U.S. took it before other Security Council members could look at it, with the excuse that they wanted to make sure certain parts having to do with recipes for weapons of mass destruction didn't get made public. But this doesn't make sense -- ___ Of course it doesn't make sense. It didn't happen that way. That wasn't the reason, that wasn't the excuse, and the U.N. kept a copy of the complete document while the U.S. made more copies for them. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
So let me get this straight. First you postulate that the Americans took the materials first to hide the Pakistani connection. Then you use that supposition to say "That's what I've been saying all along: Pakistan is far more dangerous to you than Iraq." Did I get this correctly? If so, if your first supposition is incorrect Ah, what the heck. Let's just bomb Pakistan and get it over with. THEN we can bomb Iraq. No, wait! North Korea first, then - um - Iran! Then Canada. And THEN Iraq! I got it now! Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: By now I'm sure all of you have heard of the material the Iraqi government turned over to the Security Council. The U.S. took it before other Security Council members could look at it, with the excuse that they wanted to make sure certain parts having to do with recipes for weapons of mass destruction didn't get made public. But this doesn't make sense -- all of the countries serving on the Security Council know how to make CBW. Rumour has it that the real reason the U.S. is going to censor the Iraqi material is because it shows that most of its technology came from Pakistan and was ultimately paid for by the U.S. taxpayer. Sound familiar? That's what I've been saying all along: Pakistan is far more dangerous to you than Iraq. Another reason, too, but one that's pretty well out in the public now anyway (there was an article in the November 02 Harpers about this) is how the US has deliberately obstructed the petroleum for humanitarian program in order to destroy the civilian infrastructure of Iraq. The idea seems to be that if the US makes things in Iraq really, really miserable, that the Iraqis will rise up against Saddam. Mind you, the U.S. hinted to the Shi'ites in the south during Gulf War I that if they rose up, they'd get help from the U.S. but by then Iraq wasn't a US concern anymore, and the Shi'ite rebellion was brutally put down by Saddam, so one has to wonder how stupid the US thinks Iraqis are. And I have to wonder if, in 5 or 10 years time, some major terrorist action against the U.S. comes from Iraqis, if you'll remember all this, or if you'll, once again, just ask "huh? wha' happened?" By then you'll be blaming Pakistanis. You heard it here first. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
