RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
The two most Christlike individuals I can say that I knew intimately, ah, one is dead and the other one I lost contact with. They were the first to fellowship me in my ward. Stacy. At 04:07 PM 11/12/2003 -0900, you wrote: I grew up outside the Church and met a number of good, honorable, even Christlike people. But the most Christlike people I have ever known, by far, are a small number of Mormons that I have met since joining the Church. But that is just anecdotal. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mother Teresa
John W. Redelfs wrote: But that is just anecdotal. --JWR I don't know Ann, but I know her brother, Tom Scrotal. And he says that she, indeed, is often just that. Noj // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mother Teresa
What in the world happened? I know that I typed Tom's name as Tom Ecdotal, because my spell checker complained and I told it to leave it. Hmmm - maybe I clicked the wrong button. Oh well Noj - Original Message - From: Jon Spencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Mother Teresa John W. Redelfs wrote: But that is just anecdotal. --JWR I don't know Ann, but I know her brother, Tom Scrotal. And he says that she, indeed, is often just that. Noj // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
John W. Redelfs wrote: Stephen Beecroft wrote: Christopher Hitchens hates Mother Teresa. This is not a secret. Given some of Hitchens' proclivities, I am not necessarily prone to uncritical acceptance of his viewpoint, but the man is very intelligent and, I think, makes a few good points. (Not that I know enough about the issues to make an informed judgment.) Given the praise of Mother Teresa taking place when I first returned to this list a few weeks back, I thought some might find this piece interesting, even despite its URL: http://slate.msn.com/id/2090083/ Excerpt: MT was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction. And she was a friend to the worst of the rich, taking misappropriated money from the atrocious Duvalier family in Haiti (whose rule she praised in return) and from Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings and Loan. Where did that money, and all the other donations, go? The primitive hospice in Calcutta was as run down when she died as it always had beenshe preferred California clinics when she got sick herselfand her order always refused to publish any audit. But we have her own claim that she opened 500 convents in more than a hundred countries, all bearing the name of her own order. Excuse me, but this is modesty and humility? The rich world has a poor conscience, and many people liked to alleviate their own unease by sending money to a woman who seemed like an activist for 'the poorest of the poor.' People do not like to admit that they have been gulled or conned, so a vested interest in the myth was permitted to arise, and a lazy media never bothered to ask any follow-up questions. Many volunteers who went to Calcutta came back abruptly disillusioned by the stern ideology and poverty-loving practice of the 'Missionaries of Charity,' but they had no audience for their story. George Orwell's admonition in his essay on Gandhithat saints should always be presumed guilty until proved innocentwas drowned in a Niagara of soft-hearted, soft-headed, and uninquiring propaganda. Not only that, but according to Christ, almsgiving is to be done anonymously. Mother Theresa was FAMOUS for her unselfishness. Just how unselfish can giving be when it brings that kind of fame? --JWR Two points: 1)To my knowledge, Mother Thereas did not publicize her good deeeds, her life-long work with the poor. 2. To my knowledge, the Church does publicize its donations to worth causes around the world. Given that, John, S'plain your comments above. Be sure to cc me on the message (Reply to all) if you're seeking further comment from me on the subject as I'm reading only at the website from time to time. Ron Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not only that, but according to Christ, almsgiving is to be done anonymously. Mother Theresa was FAMOUS for her unselfishness. Just how unselfish can giving be when it brings that kind of fame? --JWR Two points: 1)To my knowledge, Mother Thereas did not publicize her good deeeds, her life-long work with the poor. 2. To my knowledge, the Church does publicize its donations to worth causes around the world. Given that, John, S'plain your comments above. Be sure to cc me on the message (Reply to all) if you're seeking further comment from me on the subject as I'm reading only at the website from time to time. Inasmuch as Mother Theresa was an effective fund raiser for her work among the poor, I'm sure she did publicize her good deeds. And I don't always approve of everything the Church does. I just don't complain about it because I'm sure that either 1) I'll find out where I was mistaken or 2) the Lord will inspire his prophets to make changes. The truth is, Ron, I don't know that much about Mother Theresa. There are a lot of good people outside of the Church. Perhaps she was one of them. I'm still convinced that the best people are inside the Church. I have to believe that or discount the need for the gospel in the world. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding. (President Gordon B. Hinckley, October 2003) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
The truth is, Ron, I don't know that much about Mother Theresa. There are a lot of good people outside of the Church. Perhaps she was one of them. I'm still convinced that the best people are inside the Church. I have to believe that or discount the need for the gospel in the world. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not so sure the best people are inside the Church. I know the people in the Church who are earnestly striving to keep their covenants are much the better for it and that those outside the Church would be better off with the ordinances and teachings of the Church. We can only be perfected through the ordinances and repentance, so our potential is much higher than it is for those who don't have the Church. But whether enough of us meet that potential... I don't know. I'm often in great admiration of the good character and clean living of many people totally outside the Church. These wonderful honorable (adjective chosen carefully) people of the earth do it without the Holy Ghost, without the teachings, and without the encouragement that comes with understanding the doctrines. Many, I'm sure, have not had an adequate opportunity to accept or reject the gospel. Have you ever read Corrie Ten Boom's book The Hiding Place. What a tale of wonderful Christian people. Would that any of us could live as well as Corrie, her sister or her father. I've always thought well of Mother Teresa as well and don't understand the need some people have to throw mud at her. Of course if I have a vested interest in promoting birth control in third world countries I might see her as a threat. Of course there are detractors for Joseph Smith, Gordon B. Hinckley and even Jesus Christ had some strong enemies. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
The people of the earth often get messages from the Holy Ghost; they just don't always have Him with them. Neither do we if we're not living right. Stacy. At 04:30 PM 11/12/2003 -0700, you wrote: The truth is, Ron, I don't know that much about Mother Theresa. There are a lot of good people outside of the Church. Perhaps she was one of them. I'm still convinced that the best people are inside the Church. I have to believe that or discount the need for the gospel in the world. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not so sure the best people are inside the Church. I know the people in the Church who are earnestly striving to keep their covenants are much the better for it and that those outside the Church would be better off with the ordinances and teachings of the Church. We can only be perfected through the ordinances and repentance, so our potential is much higher than it is for those who don't have the Church. But whether enough of us meet that potential... I don't know. I'm often in great admiration of the good character and clean living of many people totally outside the Church. These wonderful honorable (adjective chosen carefully) people of the earth do it without the Holy Ghost, without the teachings, and without the encouragement that comes with understanding the doctrines. Many, I'm sure, have not had an adequate opportunity to accept or reject the gospel. Have you ever read Corrie Ten Boom's book The Hiding Place. What a tale of wonderful Christian people. Would that any of us could live as well as Corrie, her sister or her father. I've always thought well of Mother Teresa as well and don't understand the need some people have to throw mud at her. Of course if I have a vested interest in promoting birth control in third world countries I might see her as a threat. Of course there are detractors for Joseph Smith, Gordon B. Hinckley and even Jesus Christ had some strong enemies. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
I grew up outside the Church and met a number of good, honorable, even Christlike people. But the most Christlike people I have ever known, by far, are a small number of Mormons that I have met since joining the Church. But that is just anecdotal. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mother Teresa
Stephen Beecroft wrote: Christopher Hitchens hates Mother Teresa. This is not a secret. Given some of Hitchens' proclivities, I am not necessarily prone to uncritical acceptance of his viewpoint, but the man is very intelligent and, I think, makes a few good points. (Not that I know enough about the issues to make an informed judgment.) Given the praise of Mother Teresa taking place when I first returned to this list a few weeks back, I thought some might find this piece interesting, even despite its URL: http://slate.msn.com/id/2090083/ Excerpt: MT was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction. And she was a friend to the worst of the rich, taking misappropriated money from the atrocious Duvalier family in Haiti (whose rule she praised in return) and from Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings and Loan. Where did that money, and all the other donations, go? The primitive hospice in Calcutta was as run down when she died as it always had beenshe preferred California clinics when she got sick herselfand her order always refused to publish any audit. But we have her own claim that she opened 500 convents in more than a hundred countries, all bearing the name of her own order. Excuse me, but this is modesty and humility? The rich world has a poor conscience, and many people liked to alleviate their own unease by sending money to a woman who seemed like an activist for 'the poorest of the poor.' People do not like to admit that they have been gulled or conned, so a vested interest in the myth was permitted to arise, and a lazy media never bothered to ask any follow-up questions. Many volunteers who went to Calcutta came back abruptly disillusioned by the stern ideology and poverty-loving practice of the 'Missionaries of Charity,' but they had no audience for their story. George Orwell's admonition in his essay on Gandhithat saints should always be presumed guilty until proved innocentwas drowned in a Niagara of soft-hearted, soft-headed, and uninquiring propaganda. Not only that, but according to Christ, almsgiving is to be done anonymously. Mother Theresa was FAMOUS for her unselfishness. Just how unselfish can giving be when it brings that kind of fame? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mother Teresa
It seems that I may have been taken in by the popular press accounts of her, without doing much critical thinking. On the other hand, since I don't know much about her, I must avoid being taken in by negative stories. But, to tell you the truth, I don't really know if it is important enough to me to track this information down. I don't think that it will help me build the kingdom (not that everything I do helps build the kingdom, mind you). So perhaps I will just consider this a lesson learned, continue to view assisting the truly needy as something I am bound by covenant to do, and not worry about anyone else. (Stephen - I don't mean this as criticism at all. I appreciate the input.) Jon - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:45 PM Subject: [ZION] Mother Teresa Christopher Hitchens hates Mother Teresa. This is not a secret. Given some of Hitchens' proclivities, I am not necessarily prone to uncritical acceptance of his viewpoint, but the man is very intelligent and, I think, makes a few good points. (Not that I know enough about the issues to make an informed judgment.) Given the praise of Mother Teresa taking place when I first returned to this list a few weeks back, I thought some might find this piece interesting, even despite its URL: http://slate.msn.com/id/2090083/ Excerpt: MT was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction. And she was a friend to the worst of the rich, taking misappropriated money from the atrocious Duvalier family in Haiti (whose rule she praised in return) and from Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings and Loan. Where did that money, and all the other donations, go? The primitive hospice in Calcutta was as run down when she died as it always had been-she preferred California clinics when she got sick herself-and her order always refused to publish any audit. But we have her own claim that she opened 500 convents in more than a hundred countries, all bearing the name of her own order. Excuse me, but this is modesty and humility? The rich world has a poor conscience, and many people liked to alleviate their own unease by sending money to a woman who seemed like an activist for 'the poorest of the poor.' People do not like to admit that they have been gulled or conned, so a vested interest in the myth was permitted to arise, and a lazy media never bothered to ask any follow-up questions. Many volunteers who went to Calcutta came back abruptly disillusioned by the stern ideology and poverty-loving practice of the 'Missionaries of Charity,' but they had no audience for their story. George Orwell's admonition in his essay on Gandhi-that saints should always be presumed guilty until proved innocent-was drowned in a Niagara of soft-hearted, soft-headed, and uninquiring propaganda. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Mother Teresa
John W. Redelfs wrote: Not only that, but according to Christ, almsgiving is to be done anonymously. Mother Theresa was FAMOUS for her unselfishness. Just how unselfish can giving be when it brings that kind of fame? --JWR ** I think that we need to be careful about our view of MT. This writer didn't like her because she was against birth control, for one thing. I don't begrudge her for that. He also didn't like the fact that she took money from scummy people. I can see her point of view - she may have been so bothered by the poverty she saw that she lost a little bit of objectivity. As to publishing her charity, I don't know if she did this, or the donors did this, or the press did this, or the Catholic Church did this. And she was more effective as a collector of funds given her visibility. So I suggest that we withhold our criticism of MT and focus on our own salvation. MT will be judged on her intent and the wishes of her heart. Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Mother Teresa
Dear friends, -Original Message- From: Jon Spencer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Mother Teresa ... snip So I suggest that we withhold our criticism of MT and focus on our own salvation. MT will be judged on her intent and the wishes of her heart. I do know that when she was awarded the Nobel Peace prize, she gave the money to the support of the poor. I of course don't know her intent. Pax et Bonum, John A.E., n/OEF I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet. --Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
