Re: Re: [ZION] Temple Defilement
I always try to think about my personal situation. I was merely curious about the environs and how it would be handled. Stacy. At 04:26 AM 08/22/2003 -0600, you wrote: Well I supose it depends on what you mean by "defile" in regard to the temple environs. That might suggest a rededication or something like that. I do not think that someone who is unworthy, simply by being there is likely to ruin the experience for all of the attendees. What one ought to do when attending the temple is worry abuot their own situation and not fear that someone else's attendance will do something negative to the temple. The answer is still NO and the previous reasons still apply. George ---Original Message--- From: Stacy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 08/21/03 08:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Temple Defilement > > Obviously I was referring to those who go in spite of the fact they know they aren't living up to even the letter. Are those people defiling the temple? Stacy. At 10:20 PM 08/19/2003 -0700, you wrote: >On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 08:38 PM, George Cobabe wrote: > >>No! There is not one of us truly worthy to be in the temple, as in the >>presence of God. The atonement makes up for our individual problems and >>I am sure would keep the Temple pure for those who do their best to >>attend in faith. >> >>George > >Well said, George. > >Look, folks, the Lord is our judge, and he is never as judgmental as we >mere mortals. We are quick to judge, slow to forgive, stubborn, and >rebellious. We also get angry too fast. We had better repent, and soon. > >I work in the Oakland Temple. I've worked there almost 13 years. I've >easily entered that sacred edifice over 500 times. Every time when I >reach for my wallet to get my recommend, I ask myself if I am really >worthy to enter. Some weeks I am more comfortable with the idea than >others. I keep going to the temple, however, because I know I'm really >trying. I'm trying to control my anger, to obey, to yield to the will of >the Lord, to forgive quickly, and to let the Lord judge. I keep the >letter of the temple recommend questions reasonably well, and am trying to >keep the spirit of them as well. Perfect? I am far from it. I am >planning to get there someday, although I'm not looking forward to the >process. Adversity is tough. > >So, what level of wickedness does it take to not be worthy to enter the >temple? It's spelled out clearly in the temple recommend questions. >If you are keeping the letter of the temple recommend questions reasonably >well, go to the temple. When you have occasional minor lapses, repent and >go to the temple. If you have a major lapse (such as failure to tithe or >keep the Word of Wisdom, law of chastity violations, etc.), stop going to >the temple. Go to your bishop instead, and fix the problem. In all cases, >major or minor, allow the Lord to forgive you, and please, forgive >yourself. After that, go back to the temple. > >Harold Stuart > >/ / >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// >/ > > > > > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / > George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC Ogden,Utah [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 08/19/2003 -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Temple Defilement
A bunch of years ago - late 1980's iirc - a man with an expired temple recommend (he had been ex'd, I think) forced his way into the D.C. Temple with a gun and held a couple of temple workers hostage for a few hours. He eventually surrendered and the story made the news. The temple was closed for a day or two. If I remember right, they just quietly rededicated that part of the temple. I'm not sure, though...I was a teenager at the time and not much was said about how they handled it. Does anyone else remember? Heidi the fair > [Original Message] > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 8/22/2003 6:27:03 AM > Subject: RE: [ZION] Temple Defilement > > > This is what happened in Manti, as we were told by some Manti folks. Most of the time, entering the temple unworthily is considered significantly different from defiling the temple (a premeditated act which leaves physical evidence). Entering the temple unworthily defiles the person, not the temple. > > *jeep! > ~~Chet > "If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong." Gus Segar via Popeye > > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Stacy Smith: > > I was wondering how it works, that's all. > > ___ > > I think the scripture says "It shall be holy, or the Lord your > God will not dwell therein." > > When a person who is not worthy enters and leaves the > temple, and no one knows about it (that is, we mere > mortals), I don't think anything is done. > > I have heard of two or three situations where someone > broke into a temple and either did things they shouldn't > or caused minor damage. In those cases, after any > needed repairs, I understand that the temple president > was authorized by the President of the Church to > rededicate that area of the temple. > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Temple Defilement
This is what happened in Manti, as we were told by some Manti folks. Most of the time, entering the temple unworthily is considered significantly different from defiling the temple (a premeditated act which leaves physical evidence). Entering the temple unworthily defiles the person, not the temple. *jeep! ~~Chet "If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong." Gus Segar via Popeye --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stacy Smith: I was wondering how it works, that's all. ___ I think the scripture says "It shall be holy, or the Lord your God will not dwell therein." When a person who is not worthy enters and leaves the temple, and no one knows about it (that is, we mere mortals), I don't think anything is done. I have heard of two or three situations where someone broke into a temple and either did things they shouldn't or caused minor damage. In those cases, after any needed repairs, I understand that the temple president was authorized by the President of the Church to rededicate that area of the temple. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: Re: [ZION] Temple Defilement
Well I supose it depends on what you mean by "defile" in regard to the temple environs. That might suggest a rededication or something like that. I do not think that someone who is unworthy, simply by being there is likely to ruin the experience for all of the attendees. What one ought to do when attending the temple is worry abuot their own situation and not fear that someone else's attendance will do something negative to the temple. The answer is still NO and the previous reasons still apply. George ---Original Message--- From: Stacy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 08/21/03 08:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Temple Defilement > > Obviously I was referring to those who go in spite of the fact they know they aren't living up to even the letter. Are those people defiling the temple? Stacy. At 10:20 PM 08/19/2003 -0700, you wrote: >On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 08:38 PM, George Cobabe wrote: > >>No! There is not one of us truly worthy to be in the temple, as in the >>presence of God. The atonement makes up for our individual problems and >>I am sure would keep the Temple pure for those who do their best to >>attend in faith. >> >>George > >Well said, George. > >Look, folks, the Lord is our judge, and he is never as judgmental as we >mere mortals. We are quick to judge, slow to forgive, stubborn, and >rebellious. We also get angry too fast. We had better repent, and soon. > >I work in the Oakland Temple. I've worked there almost 13 years. I've >easily entered that sacred edifice over 500 times. Every time when I >reach for my wallet to get my recommend, I ask myself if I am really >worthy to enter. Some weeks I am more comfortable with the idea than >others. I keep going to the temple, however, because I know I'm really >trying. I'm trying to control my anger, to obey, to yield to the will of >the Lord, to forgive quickly, and to let the Lord judge. I keep the >letter of the temple recommend questions reasonably well, and am trying to >keep the spirit of them as well. Perfect? I am far from it. I am >planning to get there someday, although I'm not looking forward to the >process. Adversity is tough. > >So, what level of wickedness does it take to not be worthy to enter the >temple? It's spelled out clearly in the temple recommend questions. >If you are keeping the letter of the temple recommend questions reasonably >well, go to the temple. When you have occasional minor lapses, repent and >go to the temple. If you have a major lapse (such as failure to tithe or >keep the Word of Wisdom, law of chastity violations, etc.), stop going to >the temple. Go to your bishop instead, and fix the problem. In all cases, >major or minor, allow the Lord to forgive you, and please, forgive >yourself. After that, go back to the temple. > >Harold Stuart > >// >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// >/ > > > > > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / > George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC Ogden,Utah [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Temple Defilement
Stacy Smith: I was wondering how it works, that's all. ___ I think the scripture says "It shall be holy, or the Lord your God will not dwell therein." When a person who is not worthy enters and leaves the temple, and no one knows about it (that is, we mere mortals), I don't think anything is done. I have heard of two or three situations where someone broke into a temple and either did things they shouldn't or caused minor damage. In those cases, after any needed repairs, I understand that the temple president was authorized by the President of the Church to rededicate that area of the temple. Larry Jackson The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Temple Defilement
I was wondering how it works, that's all. Stacy. At 06:02 PM 08/21/2003 -0400, you wrote: I am not certain what you mean by "defiling." Apparently, the Lord has seen fit to do whatever is necessary to ensure that when an self-known unworthy person enters the temple, then it is still OK to use it as a House of Our Lord. I trust that he will continue to do so until he tells his servant, the prophet. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: > Obviously I was referring to those who go in spite of the fact they know > they aren't living up to even the letter. Are those people defiling the > temple? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Temple Defilement
I am not certain what you mean by "defiling." Apparently, the Lord has seen fit to do whatever is necessary to ensure that when an self-known unworthy person enters the temple, then it is still OK to use it as a House of Our Lord. I trust that he will continue to do so until he tells his servant, the prophet. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: > Obviously I was referring to those who go in spite of the fact they know > they aren't living up to even the letter. Are those people defiling the > temple? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Temple Defilement
At 10:23 AM 8/21/2003 -0500, St Stacy wrote: That's what I would hope is that they have no power to really defile the temple. Look at what happened to the first Nauvoo temple! I have been pondering this thread. Certainly if WE go unworthily we heap coals of condemnation upon our OWN heads. The question of actual temple defilement is one that is not so easy to untangle. Certainly temples have been "officially" defiled in the past and need rededicating etc. Solomon's temple comes to mind. Clearly, not every occurrence of the presence of an unworthy person will defile the temple or there would be many more rededications than we have ever experienced. The question becomes one of at what point is it considered defiled. Perhaps it is related to the performance of unauthorized ordinances. I'm hearing shades here of "the abomination of desolation" Could we be discussing a very disturbing sign of the times? ELF Elmer L. Fairbank N2OKConsultant/Advisor Molecular Biology & GeneticsCornell University G63 Biotech Bldg607-255-2147 check out my web page: http://elf.mbg.cornell.edu // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Temple Defilement
That's what I would hope is that they have no power to really defile the temple. Look at what happened to the first Nauvoo temple! Stacy. At 02:26 AM 08/20/2003 +, you wrote: Stacy Smith wrote: --- > I still don't understand the question I asked being answered. We know > that > many people attend the temple when they shouldn't. Doesn't this defile > the > temple itself? --- Stacy, I don't think so. The Temple is the House of the Lord, the absolute domain of Heavenly Father. It is sanctified by His power. I think we simply don't have the capacity to diminish that. Apparently it serves His purposes to permit the unworthy or unqualified to visit the Temple at their own volition. Yet I do not doubt that He watches over the affairs in the Temple with special interest. I do not believe the defilers have any power to do more than heap condemnation and destruction upon their own heads. Hopefully those who realize what they are doing will repent quickly, in fear and trembling. --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Temple Defilement
Obviously I was referring to those who go in spite of the fact they know they aren't living up to even the letter. Are those people defiling the temple? Stacy. At 10:20 PM 08/19/2003 -0700, you wrote: On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 08:38 PM, George Cobabe wrote: No! There is not one of us truly worthy to be in the temple, as in the presence of God. The atonement makes up for our individual problems and I am sure would keep the Temple pure for those who do their best to attend in faith. George Well said, George. Look, folks, the Lord is our judge, and he is never as judgmental as we mere mortals. We are quick to judge, slow to forgive, stubborn, and rebellious. We also get angry too fast. We had better repent, and soon. I work in the Oakland Temple. I've worked there almost 13 years. I've easily entered that sacred edifice over 500 times. Every time when I reach for my wallet to get my recommend, I ask myself if I am really worthy to enter. Some weeks I am more comfortable with the idea than others. I keep going to the temple, however, because I know I'm really trying. I'm trying to control my anger, to obey, to yield to the will of the Lord, to forgive quickly, and to let the Lord judge. I keep the letter of the temple recommend questions reasonably well, and am trying to keep the spirit of them as well. Perfect? I am far from it. I am planning to get there someday, although I'm not looking forward to the process. Adversity is tough. So, what level of wickedness does it take to not be worthy to enter the temple? It's spelled out clearly in the temple recommend questions. If you are keeping the letter of the temple recommend questions reasonably well, go to the temple. When you have occasional minor lapses, repent and go to the temple. If you have a major lapse (such as failure to tithe or keep the Word of Wisdom, law of chastity violations, etc.), stop going to the temple. Go to your bishop instead, and fix the problem. In all cases, major or minor, allow the Lord to forgive you, and please, forgive yourself. After that, go back to the temple. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 07/14/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Temple Defilement
On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 08:38 PM, George Cobabe wrote: No! There is not one of us truly worthy to be in the temple, as in the presence of God. The atonement makes up for our individual problems and I am sure would keep the Temple pure for those who do their best to attend in faith. George Well said, George. Look, folks, the Lord is our judge, and he is never as judgmental as we mere mortals. We are quick to judge, slow to forgive, stubborn, and rebellious. We also get angry too fast. We had better repent, and soon. I work in the Oakland Temple. I've worked there almost 13 years. I've easily entered that sacred edifice over 500 times. Every time when I reach for my wallet to get my recommend, I ask myself if I am really worthy to enter. Some weeks I am more comfortable with the idea than others. I keep going to the temple, however, because I know I'm really trying. I'm trying to control my anger, to obey, to yield to the will of the Lord, to forgive quickly, and to let the Lord judge. I keep the letter of the temple recommend questions reasonably well, and am trying to keep the spirit of them as well. Perfect? I am far from it. I am planning to get there someday, although I'm not looking forward to the process. Adversity is tough. So, what level of wickedness does it take to not be worthy to enter the temple? It's spelled out clearly in the temple recommend questions. If you are keeping the letter of the temple recommend questions reasonably well, go to the temple. When you have occasional minor lapses, repent and go to the temple. If you have a major lapse (such as failure to tithe or keep the Word of Wisdom, law of chastity violations, etc.), stop going to the temple. Go to your bishop instead, and fix the problem. In all cases, major or minor, allow the Lord to forgive you, and please, forgive yourself. After that, go back to the temple. Harold Stuart // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Temple Defilement
No! There is not one of us truly worthy to be in the temple, as in the presence of God. The atonement makes up for our individual problems and I am sure would keep the Temple pure for those who do their best to attend in faith. George ---Original Message--- From: Stacy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 08/19/03 05:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Temple Defilement > > I still don't understand the question I asked being answered. We know that many people attend the temple when they shouldn't. Doesn't this defile the temple itself? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / > George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC Ogden,Utah [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Temple Defilement
Stacy Smith wrote: --- > I still don't understand the question I asked being answered. We know > that > many people attend the temple when they shouldn't. Doesn't this defile > the > temple itself? --- Stacy, I don't think so. The Temple is the House of the Lord, the absolute domain of Heavenly Father. It is sanctified by His power. I think we simply don't have the capacity to diminish that. Apparently it serves His purposes to permit the unworthy or unqualified to visit the Temple at their own volition. Yet I do not doubt that He watches over the affairs in the Temple with special interest. I do not believe the defilers have any power to do more than heap condemnation and destruction upon their own heads. Hopefully those who realize what they are doing will repent quickly, in fear and trembling. --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
