Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
> I mean, Zope CAN send mails, but not that many (at least not efficiently). > Or how does Bugzilla do the mail stuff? One at a time via sendmail. Bugzilla has lots of very, very useful features. And does have to look like crap. We ended up using Bugzilla, it rocks. http://bugs.activestate.com Cheers. -- Andy McKay. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
> I think there's another problem here: possibly the community isn't > large enough yet. There's already been a discussion on zope-coders > about how little those with commit priviledges are actually > committing, and the main reason is simply that no-one has enough > time. This might be a bit sarcastic, but I think the community IS large enough. We just have a lot of people who use Zope one-way, i.e. they take the platform and sell the add-on products without re-contributing stuff. To a certain degree this might be necessary, but I think ZC's own experience with ZEO shows that it doesn't make sense in the long run. United we are strong! Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
> Notification, which bugzilla offers, MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE!! > Email notification is good enough, if I want that to beep my cellphone, I just > send it to me genie.co.uk email address... Yet another comment: That translates to "We finally need MAILMAN integration into Zope!" I mean, Zope CAN send mails, but not that many (at least not efficiently). Or how does Bugzilla do the mail stuff? Joachim ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
RE: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
I am hardly qualified to participate in zope-dev issues, but feel compelled to comment on the "tools thread". I find it amusing with the wealth of IT experience involved that the group doesnt just take existing Zope code and polish off an uber-Product to handle everything. Somebody with project management experience needs to step up to the admin role to make it easier on those that want to just develop and improve the core. ZC typically tries to fill this role. Can the community step-up to manage some processes? Now for the fishfood. Email is the best for Notification, but a GUI can better organize task related threads for proposals and grow-Zope-10x projects. Combine the best features of: *_Wiki -- (great for full proposals, collaborative editing, the WikiForNow management, and WikiMail) *_Squishdot -- (great for the BB feel, sound-off/venting discussions indirectly related to projects, category organization, emailing the original Poster of replies, option to moderate) *_Talkback -- (great for controlling contextual commenting localized to paragraphs, as opposed to Wiki's free-love groping) * and CMF (great for CMF) * _SourceForge -- (dont flinch, many Zope Products are moving to SourceForge) I simplified and forgot some requirements, but I dont think you will have complaints if a great collaborative product is released as a result from addressing the "fishbowl" issue. The above products are simple enough to dissect and merge in short order. Then use this well polished out-of-the-box Zope product to get PR to help Zope's reputation compete with the likes of PHP-Nuke, UBB, and other OS-Products. """ Better products, not just a better Zope, will achieve 10x. """ Out-of-the-box products that dont require much thought to install is the bait to grow the community. Success breeds success. Quality breeds quality. I am motivated by aggressive goals like "10x". This will only happen if leaders in the community buy-in and share that goal. Post the goal on top of dev.zope.org if you are serious. How about a system that segregated development of: ___"Explorations"___ (ideas and theories in search of a proposal) ___"Proposals"___ (approved, and committed to be built with time-lines and delegation for shared development, kicks out stalled proposals back down to explorations or archives) ___"Projects"___ (manages development with targeted release dates, CVS, kicks out a project if it languishes) Everyone should easily locate and access posts and comment where deemed appropriate for each task. And build in some self-cleaning workflow. If a proposal doesnt get comments or sits idle after a specified time, bring it back up again for one last gasp for breath before being relegated to an archive. Ask the community what they think in the form of single-click surveys. Minimum brain-cells invested to get feedback. Not feedback just for development...Feedback to build community and support. RAH-RAH. Ask about priorities, what sucks, what's great? etc.. Great developers seldom make great project coordinators and v.v. Get someone with "usability" expertise to assist with GUI's, not necessarily designers. Have I described some things that exist now? so have a group hug and polish things off so they are used more effectively. Now for me to get back to the sidelines. ...head down...shuffle...shuffle Cheers, Trevor ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
Since I get paid to do Zope and I feel extremely fortunate to be in that position, I will say that there are different types of community involvement that I divide my time across: 1) Activism (like this) 2) Help (Like on [EMAIL PROTECTED] or zopelabs or whatever) 3) Working on my own open source Zope products 4) Submitting/fixing bugs in the Zope core. Now, I consider positive contributions either to the zope core or zope.org to be in addition to the above. So that I would have 10 hours per week just to spend on that is highly unlikely, but sometimes possible if other things above don't take much time, or I don't prioritize them. I could potentially drop #2 altogether (its sporatic anyway), but it makes me feel good and I remember what it was like before I understood what was going on (as if I do now). That said I think maybe what we need are some "community liasons" that devote the majority of their time for right now building an infrastructure for the community and helping others contribute in some way. I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I might be willing to do that. However, I think my contributions in other ways would need to take a back seat, so I'd need to think about it, or be convinced. 8^) /---\ Casey Duncan, Sr. Web Developer National Legal Aid and Defender Association [EMAIL PROTECTED] \---/ On Friday 30 November 2001 01:14 pm, Paul Everitt allegedly wrote: > I agree that we have to lower the bar. What Seb and I were discussing > is a commitment from a small group of people to help accomplish lowering > the bar. Once it's lowered, then hopefully the rate and impact of > casual contributions will greatly increase. > > --Paul > > Andrew Kuchling wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:57:17PM +, seb bacon wrote: > >>What we need, as Paul suggested about zope-web, is a set of community > >>members who are able and willing to contribute 10 hours per week. I > >>think there are very few such people. I would love to, but I simply > > > > I'd think the number of such people is zero, except for people who use > > Zope in their work and can justify time spent developing on Zope > > itself as being work-related. It can't be assumed that people have > > much time to spend on a free software project; instead you have to > > lower the bar, and make it easier for hit-and-run contributors. If it > > takes days or worse, weeks and months, to get a contribution accepted, > > people just won't bother. > > > > Re: bug tracking. If Bugzilla is too much of a bear to deal with, > > there are simpler alternatives available, such as Roundup, Jitterbug, > > the SF bug tracker, and our unreleased SPLAT!. > > > > --amk ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
From: "Andrew Kuchling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I'd think the number of such people is zero, except for people who use > Zope in their work and can justify time spent developing on Zope > itself as being work-related. Uhm. Thats me, and I can't promise 10 hrs a week either... :-) 5, maybe... ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
I agree that we have to lower the bar. What Seb and I were discussing is a commitment from a small group of people to help accomplish lowering the bar. Once it's lowered, then hopefully the rate and impact of casual contributions will greatly increase. --Paul Andrew Kuchling wrote: > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:57:17PM +, seb bacon wrote: > >>What we need, as Paul suggested about zope-web, is a set of community >>members who are able and willing to contribute 10 hours per week. I >>think there are very few such people. I would love to, but I simply >> > > I'd think the number of such people is zero, except for people who use > Zope in their work and can justify time spent developing on Zope > itself as being work-related. It can't be assumed that people have > much time to spend on a free software project; instead you have to > lower the bar, and make it easier for hit-and-run contributors. If it > takes days or worse, weeks and months, to get a contribution accepted, > people just won't bother. > > Re: bug tracking. If Bugzilla is too much of a bear to deal with, > there are simpler alternatives available, such as Roundup, Jitterbug, > the SF bug tracker, and our unreleased SPLAT!. > > --amk > > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:57:17PM +, seb bacon wrote: >What we need, as Paul suggested about zope-web, is a set of community >members who are able and willing to contribute 10 hours per week. I >think there are very few such people. I would love to, but I simply I'd think the number of such people is zero, except for people who use Zope in their work and can justify time spent developing on Zope itself as being work-related. It can't be assumed that people have much time to spend on a free software project; instead you have to lower the bar, and make it easier for hit-and-run contributors. If it takes days or worse, weeks and months, to get a contribution accepted, people just won't bother. Re: bug tracking. If Bugzilla is too much of a bear to deal with, there are simpler alternatives available, such as Roundup, Jitterbug, the SF bug tracker, and our unreleased SPLAT!. --amk ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
> "CW" == Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: CW> Now here I really gotta shout loud 'cos I've made this point CW> so many times I'm wondering how I can say it so it gets CW> through... (Paul, here, have some earplugs ;-) CW> Notification, which bugzilla offers, MAKES ALL THE CW> DIFFERENCE!! Email notification is good enough, if I want CW> that to beep my cellphone, I just send it to me genie.co.uk CW> email address... I should mention that Simon Michael's MailWiki tool is incredible for things like this. It mails changes in the Wiki (almost, but not resembling, a unified diff, with the PageChange'd title in the subject). It also allows for mail-in appending, which of course is potentially dangerous, but so is any WWW-based storage of mail. Intelligent use of mail filtering (which has led to my symbiotic relationship with emacs and gnus for nearly 6 years now) will reduce the burden. It's not perfect, but it's not bad. I REALLY, but REALLY like using this feature. And I've been using on a wiki that I use for "brain dumps" from email... It would need a bit more work (semi-validation of "from", etc), but it is potentially useful in this context. I hate firing up a browser to go searching, but I'll do it if something catches my eye... CW> Well, okay, don't use bugzilla. But dump wiki, it's not CW> sutructured enough. You want bite sized bits of information, See above. But maybe it still wouldn't be structured enough. best, -tony -- A.J. RossiniRsrch. Asst. Prof. of Biostatistics U. of Washington Biostatistics [EMAIL PROTECTED] FHCRC/SCHARP/HIV Vaccine Trials Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://software.biostat.washington.edu/ -- FHCRC: M-W: 206-667-7025 (fax=4812)|Voicemail is pretty sketchy/use Email UW: T-Th: 206-543-1044 (fax=3286)|Change last 4 digits of phone to FAX Rosen: (Mullins' Lab) Fridays, and I'm unreachable except by email. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
> Paul Everitt wrote: > > This isn't a good track record. Brian produced 35 pages worth of > > almost-flawless docs on web services to go with his code. But no > > comments. And he's doing this on his own time. So let's remember that > > this is a two-way street. > * Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [011130 16:47]: > list archives and the like...) and so never came back. Now, if I > could have ticked a box saying "email me when such and such happens" > then I, or other people here at NIP who are dealing with Web > Services in a big way ,would have got involved as soon as > appropriate... I think there's another problem here: possibly the community isn't large enough yet. There's already been a discussion on zope-coders about how little those with commit priviledges are actually committing, and the main reason is simply that no-one has enough time. How many people are there who are really comfortable with Zope to the point where they would be able to contribute meaningfully to a discussion about, for example, Web Services? Of the active community, I would guess fewer than 40. Of these, perhaps half missed the announcement. Of the others, probably another half were in the middle of very hectic projects. Of the 10 remaining, perhaps they weren't interested, or were going to look tomorrow but forgot... What we need, as Paul suggested about zope-web, is a set of community members who are able and willing to contribute 10 hours per week. I think there are very few such people. I would love to, but I simply can't. The best way of getting such people is to cast the community web wider, and draw more people in. The best way of doing this is make zope.org *really good*, I reckon. I for one will be pontificating on zope-web next week. seb ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!
+2 I like the idea of unifying the fishbowl and the collector. And I agree about notification. seb ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
