Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Hi Gary, Thanks for pointing me over there I subscribed to the list and will repost. Cheers, Pete Gary Poster wrote: On Feb 15, 2006, at 9:40 PM, Peter Simmons wrote: I haven't seen it before in the Zope 3 community but maybe we could start a thing on Fundable.org to get some money for this thing. Or would ZF be the place to approach about this? I am not really up with the play on where ZF is at and what its going to do. Anyway my company could contribute $1000 NZD (about $700 USD at the moment) to this to get the ball rolling. Should I try to organise this myself or is there already people responsible for this type of thing? This sounds fantastic to me, Peter. I think the ZF, which should easily be launched soon enough to be a part of this, certainly should be involved. I have no idea about fundable.org, and how that might interact with ZF. If you have not already been directed to the zope-web list, I understand that people are working on this there. In general, I'd suggest starting to organize and plan now, and planning to try and fit it within the ZF once it emerges. Gary ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
some riffs on build, test and run Zope3: Build, Test and Adapt Enterprise class development for the changing web Zope3: Build, Test and Evolve Agile component development for the changing web Kevin Smith View this message in context: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me! Sent from the Zope3 - users forum at Nabble.com. ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
The Zope Foundation, which is probably coming pretty darn soon, might help catalyze contributors a bit. It will own the zope3.org domain, the zope.org domain, and probably lots more, and all of the software. But before or after the foundation, I think small steps are more likely to succeed than grand plans. Someone writing an impressive brochure-ware site about Zope 3 is going to be easier and more impressive than trying to get folks to agree on a grand Zope 3 software site. Someone assembling some of the word-smithing in this thread might even generate a simple impressive advocacy *page* that could be linked to from the front of zope.org. I thought Joel's post had some ring to it, for instance. Whether or not we have a Zope 3: Rebel Angel rename :-), it would be great to see Joel or Martin or someone step up to put some advocacy out there. If I can help with trying to figure out who to ask for what, let me know. As I see it, Zope 3's central marketing issue is the lack of a coherent online identity. There needs to be a single place that answers the following questions: 1) What is Zope 3? 2) Why use Zope 3? 3) How does Zope 3 compare to competing frameworks? 4) How do I get started? Largely, this is assembly of the Zope 3 FrontPage, philikon's first two chapters, and the appetizer quick start guides on worldcookery. However, I would also love to see a section on the lead developers answering Q1-Q3. And this would be in conjunction with conveying... Zope3's shtick: Zope3 is not flashy. Zope3 does not put pastel colors on its website. Zope3 is the no-nonsense, industrial strength platform. It's where you come when you want to do it right. It was coded with the most rigorous standards by a bunch of hard-nosed sons of bitches who don't have time for froofy marketing :). And so forth. This would come across in lead dev's answering Q1-Q3. And finally, the site should demonstrate the industrial strength quality with examples. Little snippets from developers of SchoolTool, corporate users, and so forth should demonstrate hey, we're for real, and we don't mess around -- you give me an animated screenshots, I raise you a XYZ transaction per day uber site. In a sense, we'd want to portray ourselves as the Chuck Norris[1] of web platforms :) Bottom line, a coherent online identity would go a long way. Instead of doing some snazzy marketings, let's communicate the character that Zope3 does have. It sounds like zope3.org under ZF might be the ideal way to do this, As for codenames, this is just one way we could help create a coherent online identity. I certainly think release names would be fun (and not distracting to the central Zope 3 brand we'd want). Overall, I think the time has come for communication of Zope 3 identity to move hand in hand with development. Joel [1] For those not familiar with Chuck Norris, he's a no-nonsense martial arts guy and the subject of these very amusing facts. http://www.4q.cc/chuck/index.php?topthirty ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Feb 3, 2006, at 1:16 PM, Joel Moxley wrote: [...] Overall, I think the time has come for communication of Zope 3 identity to move hand in hand with development. This was a great post. I want it go someplace, and I want you to be involved in getting it there. :-) Those were some fun, good ideas. Gary ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Wade Leftwich wrote: Guido van Rossum is looking for a web app framework. http://blog.delaguardia.com.mx/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=34blogId=1 Zope is conspicuous by its absence from the discussion. Hardly a mention, and no advocacy at all. Is Zope just too heavyweight for the project he has in mind? Or what? I don't think the point is trying to convince guido to use Zope for his pet project, the point is global advocacy: - Guido's word is considered gospel by many people (in that occurrence, I must confess that I have been profoundly disappointed by his attitude - his utter and a priori rejection of XML for a template language, that will be used 95% for the time to produce (X)HTML and the 5% remaining other variant of XML, with all that it implies in terms of validation, etc. is plainly stupid). - Like you noticed, Zope quasi-absence from the discussion is suspicious. Lennart did a reply on his blog (http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/lennart_regebro/2006_02_01_guido-webframeworks). Anyway, I'm saddened by both the quasi-absence of the Zope community in this debate, and also the badmouthing of Zope (even sometimes, the hatred) by some Python developpers taking part in the discussion. There are, however, some constructive remarks like Ian Bicking's: http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/lennart_regebro/2006_02_01_guido-webframeworks?post_id=if-mohammed-won-t-come S. -- Stéfane Fermigier, Tel: +33 (0)6 63 04 12 77 (mobile). Nuxeo Collaborative Portal Server: http://www.nuxeo.com/cps Gestion de contenu web / portail collaboratif / groupware / open source! ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Stefane Fermigier wrote: Wade Leftwich wrote: Guido van Rossum is looking for a web app framework. http://blog.delaguardia.com.mx/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=34blogId=1 Zope is conspicuous by its absence from the discussion. Hardly a mention, and no advocacy at all. Is Zope just too heavyweight for the project he has in mind? Or what? I don't think the point is trying to convince guido to use Zope for his pet project, the point is global advocacy: - Guido's word is considered gospel by many people (in that occurrence, I must confess that I have been profoundly disappointed by his attitude - his utter and a priori rejection of XML for a template language, that will be used 95% for the time to produce (X)HTML and the 5% remaining other variant of XML, with all that it implies in terms of validation, etc. is plainly stupid). - Like you noticed, Zope quasi-absence from the discussion is suspicious. Lennart did a reply on his blog (http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/lennart_regebro/2006_02_01_guido-webframeworks). Anyway, I'm saddened by both the quasi-absence of the Zope community in this debate, and also the badmouthing of Zope (even sometimes, the hatred) by some Python developpers taking part in the discussion. There are, however, some constructive remarks like Ian Bicking's: http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/lennart_regebro/2006_02_01_guido-webframeworks?post_id=if-mohammed-won-t-come S. I think this has to do with python being used both as a scripting language and as a language to create high-level components. There will always be a category of users looking for quick-and-dirty templating capabilities in web frameworks and others looking for more abstract components that address issues from a more abstract and certainly more complex perspective. In zope itself level the same opposition can be found between file-system vs TTW python-script-based development. I wonder how those who criticize zope3 for being too big a framework and too complex to understand, would figure out how to use Java-based web application frameworks... /JM ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On 2/2/06, Jean-Marc Orliaguet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this has to do with python being used both as a scripting language and as a language to create high-level components. There will always be a category of users looking for quick-and-dirty templating capabilities in web frameworks and others looking for more abstract components that address issues from a more abstract and certainly more complex perspective. I was thinking the same thing, and I have started thinking about if there is a way to use Zope 3 for quick and dirty stuff as well. The answer is probably no, but still. ;) -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Stefane Fermigier wrote: Wade Leftwich wrote: Guido van Rossum is looking for a web app framework. http://blog.delaguardia.com.mx/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=34blogId=1 Zope is conspicuous by its absence from the discussion. Hardly a mention, and no advocacy at all. Is Zope just too heavyweight for the project he has in mind? Or what? I don't think the point is trying to convince guido to use Zope for his pet project, the point is global advocacy: - Guido's word is considered gospel by many people (in that occurrence, I must confess that I have been profoundly disappointed by his attitude - his utter and a priori rejection of XML for a template language, that will be used 95% for the time to produce (X)HTML and the 5% remaining other variant of XML, with all that it implies in terms of validation, etc. is plainly stupid). - Like you noticed, Zope quasi-absence from the discussion is suspicious. Lennart did a reply on his blog (http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/lennart_regebro/2006_02_01_guido-webframeworks). Anyway, I'm saddened by both the quasi-absence of the Zope community in this debate, and also the badmouthing of Zope (even sometimes, the hatred) by some Python developpers taking part in the discussion. There are, however, some constructive remarks like Ian Bicking's: http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/lennart_regebro/2006_02_01_guido-webframeworks?post_id=if-mohammed-won-t-come S. I think this has to do with python being used both as a scripting language and as a language to create high-level components. There will always be a category of users looking for quick-and-dirty templating capabilities in web frameworks and others looking for more abstract components that address issues from a more abstract and certainly more complex perspective. In zope itself level the same opposition can be found between file-system vs TTW python-script-based development. I wonder how those who criticize zope3 for being too big a framework and too complex to understand, would figure out how to use Java-based web application frameworks... /JM I've followed the Guido blogs/discussion loosely. As a relative newcomer, this is my first real experience with the Python community's confusion of Zope2 and Zope3. I've seen on the list that people have been discussing renaming and other remedies to this problem. In my opinion, I think a little branding could go a long way. Instead of renaming the entire project, call it Zope3 Zebra or Zope3 Panther (clearly these are horrible, but you can see where I am going with this). Then create a dedicated website www.zope3zebra.org that basically links the Zope 3 book, tutorials, example code, and existing projects like SchoolTool on the front page. Clearly brand it as a industrial-strength, pythonic web framework and a complete rewrite from Zope2. Provide a link to all Python web frameworks and explain the advantages of industrial-strength, non-hackish code for people who want to do it right the first time. This front page will provide a jumping off point for zope3 devs and users. Does this make sense? It's only a small rebrand (and the Zope3 stays intact) and an assembly of components that already exist. Basically, you can use this occasion as a coming out party... Zope3 is here, and we're for real. Bottom line, I think the proof is in the pudding, and Zope3 quality is superb so it's not going anywhere. But a little better organization/marketing to the outside world could go a long way. Anyways, a thought. ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Stephan Richter wrote: Actually, the Zope 2 and Plone community are starting using Zope 3 heavily so the marketing will come. And CPS, and Silva, too... S. ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thursday 02 February 2006 14:45, Fermigier Stefane wrote: And CPS, and Silva, too... Well, you already are using it heavily. :-) Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
This is an interesting thread. Some opinions and observations: Guido will do what Guido does. His seeming antagonism to Zope is a little annoying, but he's opinionated on other topics too, and sometimes admits to being wrong and human. As some folks mentioned, it does sound like he maybe wants something simpler and more constrained in scope than Zope 3. Maybe Jim's Bobo would be it, or maybe someone else will be able to assemble some Zope 3 bits into a small approachable kit. I am hopeful that Zope 3 will continue strong whether it has huge buzz or not, as Stephan, Kevin, Joel and maybe others said. However, I agree with Joel, Martin, and others that buzz and community would undeniably be helpful. I can even conceive of it being absolutely essential: sadly, trusting on merit alone is a scary and probably naive road. I truly wish we could get the word out about Zope 3. The Zope development companies (such as ZC) are probably only a limited resource: they are making money on Zope, sometimes without their clients knowing or caring that Zope is the tool behind the software. The companies are already often contributing significantly to the development of Zope 3 and/or of an open- or mixed-source platform, and simply don't have too many other further resources to give. I appreciated what Martin said: [...] Note that I'm not saying that the same people who produce the code (and great code it is, which is why I care so much about this) should be doing this. In fact, the Plone experience tells us they probably shouldn't. But *someone* ought to[...] The Zope Foundation, which is probably coming pretty darn soon, might help catalyze contributors a bit. It will own the zope3.org domain, the zope.org domain, and probably lots more, and all of the software. But before or after the foundation, I think small steps are more likely to succeed than grand plans. Someone writing an impressive brochure-ware site about Zope 3 is going to be easier and more impressive than trying to get folks to agree on a grand Zope 3 software site. Someone assembling some of the word-smithing in this thread might even generate a simple impressive advocacy *page* that could be linked to from the front of zope.org. I thought Joel's post had some ring to it, for instance. Whether or not we have a Zope 3: Rebel Angel rename :-), it would be great to see Joel or Martin or someone step up to put some advocacy out there. If I can help with trying to figure out who to ask for what, let me know. Again, ZC is *giving the zope.org site away to the new Zope Foundation*: it will be up to community members and corporate members together to make the site the compelling sales pitch and welcoming documentation that it could be. Just make *small* steps. :-) Gary ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Guido van Rossum is looking for a web app framework. http://blog.delaguardia.com.mx/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=34blogId=1 Zope is conspicuous by its absence from the discussion. Hardly a mention, and no advocacy at all. Is Zope just too heavyweight for the project he has in mind? Or what? -- Wade Leftwich Ithaca, NY ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Wade Leftwich wrote: Guido van Rossum is looking for a web app framework. http://blog.delaguardia.com.mx/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=34blogId=1 Zope is conspicuous by its absence from the discussion. Hardly a mention, and no advocacy at all. Is Zope just too heavyweight for the project he has in mind? Or what? Seems Guido answer your questions himself. Quote from http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=106thread=146503: From this perspective, Zope and Twisted are off the scale: they support the mix-and-match approach, offering several alternative solutions for many of the important issues (templating, persistence, authentication, etc.). But they only work if you drink lavish quantities of their particular flavor of kool-aid, and that's not good enough for me. I don't want to depend on any particular flavor of interfaces, adaptation, serialization, discovery, etc. I'm looking for solutions that depend only on the Python standard library, and use accepted Python idioms and patterns. Any takers? -- Dmitry Vasiliev (dima at hlabs.spb.ru) http://hlabs.spb.ru ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Wednesday 01 February 2006 12:51, ksmith99 (sent by Nabble.com) wrote: He'll be back. After he finishes the project, Google will tweak the requirements a few times, and GvR will need to refactor. After he throws out and/or completely restructures 90% of his code, he'll look for a different solution. I'll just add that Guido was one of the early shapers/designers of ZCML. Interfaces, components and zcml will start looking real nice. I experienced the boomerang effect when RoR came out. I'm happy to be back. :) Very good to hear! Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
