Re: [Zope] Zope is in trouble
I don't think the issue is technical, or GUI/UI related. There may be stuff to discuss there, but that wasn't by point. One of the reasons zope.org may be hard to fix is that (a) zope.org is a big complicated site that needs a real commitment, (b) few people can directly work on it, (c) cleaning it up will be painful and probably involve controversial decisions including removal of useful legacy data. (As an aside, Dieter M suggested I move this discussion to zope-dev which I am doing. He is an inestimable assert to the community and anybody who uses Zope owes him a huge debt.) On Sep 26, 2007, at 3:07 PM, Dieter Maurer wrote: Gregory Dudek wrote at 2007-9-26 10:45 -0400: ... I am not criticizing the people on this list or the other Zope developers: I have enormous appreciation for what has been built, I just would hate to see is dwindle in vitality and use. Thank you for your suggestions! I do not belong to those who can fix the problem you have described (I am a pure backend developper) but nevertheless I appreciate that you have spoken up. If you do not get further responses, you may try again on "[EMAIL PROTECTED]". I am not sure that the core team is around on this list. -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope is in trouble
Basically everything is true. The time of www.zope.org as a software repository has gone. In earlier times zope.org has been the only Zope related site. Nowadays with the growth and Zope and a lot of new projects, projects moved out into different sites. zope.org is an official project of the Zope Foundation and there were some talks on relaunching zope.org - however I don't know about details and the current state. The new site is likely to become a small site representing the Zope platform in the first place. -aj --On 26. September 2007 10:45:57 -0400 Gregory Dudek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I have been a Zope developer & user for several years. Zope is great and it has had a major impact on my work. All this to say I am an experienced Zope user and supporter. I think the Zope is in major trouble and the Zope.org web site is badly in need of attention. I started using zope in 2001 at Xerox PARC and the helpful and persuasive resources at zope.org were a major factor. Today, zope.org is full of dead links and it very hard to use unless you are already experienced. Getting started with Zope today is harder now than is was, even though the actual software is better. A key factor is that from the zope.org web site it is not clear if the community is healthy or not, and the general impression is that the project is stalled since so many links are dead and defunct (and in fact I am not so sure of the zope community health myself any longer, despite the ongoing zope postings here). In my opinion, making zope.org look healthy and be usable is the MOST important obstacle for the Zope community. I believe this is both a symptom and a cause of disarray in the Zope user/developer community. Zope was always a bit hairy to get into, without saying anything about Plone development or Zope 3, I just want to point out that without a clear simple up-to-date main web site, things are looking really bad. I introduced some zope-based material in an introductory computer science course a few years ago with moderate success, but am starting to doubt it would be appropriate any longer. I am not criticizing the people on this list or the other Zope developers: I have enormous appreciation for what has been built, I just would hate to see is dwindle in vitality and use. Greg Appendix (Examples) Specific evidence (these are just examples): 1) search for something, say "user folder" on zope.org Pages you get are dated 2001, 2000, 2003, Let's try link 3 for the extensible user folder (one of the formerly more popular and useful items in the first few listed). Click the "more info link": dead page (Insufficient Privileges) 2) Click "Zope Products" on the sidebar. Most of the listed products are old. 3) "Resources" Sidebar Item. Click "Zope Links". -> Site Error ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- ZOPYX Ltd. & Co. KG - Charlottenstr. 37/1 - 72070 Tübingen - Germany Web: www.zopyx.com - Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Phone +49 - 7071 - 793376 Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart, Handelsregister A 381535 Geschäftsführer/Gesellschafter: ZOPYX Limited, Birmingham, UK E-Publishing, Python, Zope & Plone development, Consulting pgp62grOAhp7d.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope is in trouble
While I agree that the zope resources look a bit stale, I think that zope itself has never been so relevant. I am a new zope developer and I find that zope fits well with many of the new web techniques. I haven't bothered to learn much page templates because my site is almost completely built out of a javascript library (extjs) that provides widgets, so I don't need much more than some simple dtml calls. It is build on REST principals which fits naturally with zope as a back end and it is a web service so I don't need a relational database. (relational databases are of limited value when you are building a new web service that will fit within a SOA). Also, Zope is easy to manage through the web so my users don't need to hire a DBA. I think the problem with zope was that it provided solutions to 2008 web development problems in 2002. If it was a private product I would re-brand it and announce it as the perfect back end for RESTful web services. One suggestion: if only the admin interface was more easily scriptable from command line python scripts. I have seen a few examples but it would be nice to get the whole API in one place in a document or a full featured application. Tim On 9/26/07, baiewola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Often when you find a product on zope.org, there's just a link out to > another site, so the most recent downloads aren't even available on > zope.org. It's often more useful and faster just to google on your zope > topics, rather than use zope.org. > > How can the community help, that's what we need to know? > > --- Gregory Dudek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > I have been a Zope developer & user for several years. Zope is great > > > > and it has had a major impact on my work. All this to say I am an > > experienced Zope user and supporter. > > > > I think the Zope is in major trouble and the Zope.org web site is > > badly in need of attention. I started using zope in 2001 > > at Xerox PARC and the helpful and persuasive resources at zope.org > > were a major factor. Today, zope.org is full of dead links and it > > very > > hard to use unless you are already experienced. Getting started with > > > > Zope today is harder now than is was, even though the actual software > > > > is better. > > > > A key factor is that from the zope.org web site it is not clear if > > the community is healthy or not, and the general impression is that > > the project is stalled since so many links are dead and defunct (and > > > > in fact I am not so sure of the zope community health myself any > > longer, despite the ongoing zope postings here). In my opinion, > > making zope.org look healthy and be usable is the MOST important > > obstacle for the Zope community. I believe this is both a symptom > > and a cause of disarray in the Zope user/developer community. > > > > Zope was always a bit hairy to get into, without saying anything > > about Plone development or Zope 3, I just want to point out that > > without a clear simple up-to-date main web site, things are looking > > really bad. I introduced some zope-based material in an introductory > > > > computer science course a few years ago with moderate success, but am > > > > starting to doubt it would be appropriate any longer. > > > > I am not criticizing the people on this list or the other Zope > > developers: I have enormous appreciation for what has been built, I > > just would hate to see is dwindle in vitality and use. > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > Appendix (Examples) > > > > Specific evidence (these are just examples): > >1) search for something, say "user folder" on zope.org > > Pages you get are dated 2001, 2000, 2003, > > > > Let's try link 3 for the extensible user folder (one of the > > formerly more popular and useful items in the first few listed). > >Click the "more info link": dead page (Insufficient > > Privileges) > > > > 2) Click "Zope Products" on the sidebar. Most of the listed > > products are old. > > > > 3) "Resources" Sidebar Item. Click "Zope Links". -> Site Error > > ___ > > Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org > > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > > (Related lists - > > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) > > > > > > > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! > FareChase. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/ > ___ > Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) > ___ Zope maillist - Zope@z
Re: [Zope] Zope is in trouble
Often when you find a product on zope.org, there's just a link out to another site, so the most recent downloads aren't even available on zope.org. It's often more useful and faster just to google on your zope topics, rather than use zope.org. How can the community help, that's what we need to know? --- Gregory Dudek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have been a Zope developer & user for several years. Zope is great > > and it has had a major impact on my work. All this to say I am an > experienced Zope user and supporter. > > I think the Zope is in major trouble and the Zope.org web site is > badly in need of attention. I started using zope in 2001 > at Xerox PARC and the helpful and persuasive resources at zope.org > were a major factor. Today, zope.org is full of dead links and it > very > hard to use unless you are already experienced. Getting started with > > Zope today is harder now than is was, even though the actual software > > is better. > > A key factor is that from the zope.org web site it is not clear if > the community is healthy or not, and the general impression is that > the project is stalled since so many links are dead and defunct (and > > in fact I am not so sure of the zope community health myself any > longer, despite the ongoing zope postings here). In my opinion, > making zope.org look healthy and be usable is the MOST important > obstacle for the Zope community. I believe this is both a symptom > and a cause of disarray in the Zope user/developer community. > > Zope was always a bit hairy to get into, without saying anything > about Plone development or Zope 3, I just want to point out that > without a clear simple up-to-date main web site, things are looking > really bad. I introduced some zope-based material in an introductory > > computer science course a few years ago with moderate success, but am > > starting to doubt it would be appropriate any longer. > > I am not criticizing the people on this list or the other Zope > developers: I have enormous appreciation for what has been built, I > just would hate to see is dwindle in vitality and use. > > Greg > > > > Appendix (Examples) > > Specific evidence (these are just examples): >1) search for something, say "user folder" on zope.org > Pages you get are dated 2001, 2000, 2003, > > Let's try link 3 for the extensible user folder (one of the > formerly more popular and useful items in the first few listed). >Click the "more info link": dead page (Insufficient > Privileges) > > 2) Click "Zope Products" on the sidebar. Most of the listed > products are old. > > 3) "Resources" Sidebar Item. Click "Zope Links". -> Site Error > ___ > Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Zope is in trouble
Gregory Dudek wrote at 2007-9-26 10:45 -0400: > ... >I am not criticizing the people on this list or the other Zope >developers: I have enormous appreciation for what has been built, I >just would hate to see is dwindle in vitality and use. Thank you for your suggestions! I do not belong to those who can fix the problem you have described (I am a pure backend developper) but nevertheless I appreciate that you have spoken up. If you do not get further responses, you may try again on "[EMAIL PROTECTED]". I am not sure that the core team is around on this list. -- Dieter ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Zope is in trouble
I have been a Zope developer & user for several years. Zope is great and it has had a major impact on my work. All this to say I am an experienced Zope user and supporter. I think the Zope is in major trouble and the Zope.org web site is badly in need of attention. I started using zope in 2001 at Xerox PARC and the helpful and persuasive resources at zope.org were a major factor. Today, zope.org is full of dead links and it very hard to use unless you are already experienced. Getting started with Zope today is harder now than is was, even though the actual software is better. A key factor is that from the zope.org web site it is not clear if the community is healthy or not, and the general impression is that the project is stalled since so many links are dead and defunct (and in fact I am not so sure of the zope community health myself any longer, despite the ongoing zope postings here). In my opinion, making zope.org look healthy and be usable is the MOST important obstacle for the Zope community. I believe this is both a symptom and a cause of disarray in the Zope user/developer community. Zope was always a bit hairy to get into, without saying anything about Plone development or Zope 3, I just want to point out that without a clear simple up-to-date main web site, things are looking really bad. I introduced some zope-based material in an introductory computer science course a few years ago with moderate success, but am starting to doubt it would be appropriate any longer. I am not criticizing the people on this list or the other Zope developers: I have enormous appreciation for what has been built, I just would hate to see is dwindle in vitality and use. Greg Appendix (Examples) Specific evidence (these are just examples): 1) search for something, say "user folder" on zope.org Pages you get are dated 2001, 2000, 2003, Let's try link 3 for the extensible user folder (one of the formerly more popular and useful items in the first few listed). Click the "more info link": dead page (Insufficient Privileges) 2) Click "Zope Products" on the sidebar. Most of the listed products are old. 3) "Resources" Sidebar Item. Click "Zope Links". -> Site Error ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
