That you indeed have a good point. And I applause for your active participation.
But you should do more research on the subject and listen to the real community, not just the ones going to the RIR meetings. Just like law maker talk to their constituents while propose laws. That, you are making better policy for betterment of internet not narrow group of people. We have a flawed system with large amount of ignorance, one small step to fix it is people here start to understand what member truly need and want. A more fundamental solution is of course needed in the long run. On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 18:29 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < [email protected]> wrote: > I don’t have personally, neither in my employer, resources in any RIR/NIR, > however I participate in all the 5 RIRs PDP because improving things for > the community is the right thing to do. > > It’s very funny and easy to complain about any policy and not come to the > PDP to propose changes. Is like “things are wrong, I don’t care, I will not > invest my time and resources to improve them, someone else should do”. > > Regards, > Jordi > > @jordipalet > > > El 2 sept 2023, a las 12:23, Lu Heng <[email protected]> escribió: > > Hi > > I do not have APNIC resources, so, no, I am not bound to the resource > policy in this region. > > But moving forward, either APNIC facing existence crisis or update it’s > policy and process to reflect market reality. > > And when it is monopoly and strand form contract, the legal validity on > “you sign you bound to it” is very questionable. > > It’s a highly challengeable contract in court. > > > On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 18:18 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> If you sign a contract, with certain conditions, you are bound to them, >> unless they are unlawful, and is not the case. >> >> You’re free to propose a policy proposal to change it. >> >> Regards, >> Jordi >> >> @jordipalet >> >> >> El 2 sept 2023, a las 12:09, Lu Heng <[email protected]> escribió: >> >> Standard form contract favors the party who not doing the drafting. >> >> And I would say many members disagree, a simple questionnaire to members >> “do you want to own your IPs?”receives overwhelming positive answer. >> >> And it’s just a policy of a private limited company. >> >> It does not constitute law. >> >> And this part of policy need to be changed and updated in the future to >> reflect the market reality. >> >> On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 18:05 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Existing policies, with the consensus of the community, which are part >>> of the membership agreement and consequently accepted by all the members: >>> >>> 4.0. Resource License >>> >>> It is contrary to the goals of this document and is not in the interests >>> of the Internet community as a whole, for Internet number resources to be >>> considered freehold property. >>> >>> Neither delegation nor registration confers ownership of resources. >>> Account holders that use them are considered “custodians” rather than >>> “owners” of the resource and are not entitled to sell or otherwise transfer >>> that resource to other parties outside the provisions in this document. >>> >>> Internet resources are regarded as public resources that should only be >>> distributed according to demonstrated need. >>> The policies in this document are based upon the understanding that >>> globally unique unicast address space is licensed for use rather than owned. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Jordi >>> >>> @jordipalet >>> >>> >>> El 2 sept 2023, a las 11:59, Lu Heng <[email protected]> escribió: >>> >>> Hi Jordi: >>> >>> Who define those legal rights? >>> >>> Who said it is not a property? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 17:55 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Really ugly and unfortunate that you compare those things, and I guess >>>> against code of conduct. >>>> >>>> I just can insist that you can’t sell something that is not a property. >>>> You have the usage rights. You can own a house or have the right to use it >>>> (rental), and the right to use it may allow you to transfer that right to >>>> another person or not. So not the same reselling that transferring >>>> addresses, is not just a matter of wording, but about the real meaning of >>>> those words, from a legal perspective. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Jordi >>>> >>>> @jordipalet >>>> >>>> >>>> El 2 sept 2023, a las 11:43, Lu Heng <[email protected]> >>>> escribió: >>>> >>>> Hi Jordi: >>>> >>>> Tell me the difference between reselling and transferring? >>>> >>>> Does it equal to the 500 USD someone paid to the girl he met last >>>> night? Of course it’s not prostitution, just little goodwill. >>>> >>>> Nominally a transfer involve that 500USD I just mentioned. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 17:39 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It is true that RIPE is too liberal, but not so to allow reselling >>>>> addresses, because those aren’t a property. You can transfer them. That’s >>>>> it. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Jordi >>>>> >>>>> @jordipalet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> El 30 ago 2023, a las 10:40, Lu Heng <[email protected]> >>>>> escribió: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Jordi: >>>>> >>>>> That must be a long time ago. >>>>> >>>>> RIPE's current policy is you ask you get, no need to provide a reason. >>>>> >>>>> Of course that means you can get IP for leasing, you can even get IP >>>>> for resale. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 16:32, jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Mike, >>>>>> >>>>>> There is no inaccuracy on the RIPE point. Long time ago I made the >>>>>> question to RIPE staff and a justification on an original request for IP >>>>>> resources for leasing will not have been accepted as a valid one. Not >>>>>> talking about transfers here, just original justification of the need. >>>>>> >>>>>> Working in a new version following all the inputs. Tks! >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Jordi >>>>>> >>>>>> @jordipalet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> El 22 ago 2023, a las 16:19, Mike Burns <[email protected]> >>>>>> escribió: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> >>>>>> The revised Section 3 contains the same inaccuracy that I have >>>>>> pointed out before in other fora to the authors. >>>>>> Notably the situation described in RIPE below is false. >>>>>> RIPE only applies needs-tests to inbound inter-regional transfers, >>>>>> and in this case leasing them out is a justified use. >>>>>> If you don’t accept my assertion, I invite you to contact RIPE >>>>>> directly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Can the authors provide a succinct problem statement that states the >>>>>> problem we are trying to solve? >>>>>> The one I can see is the claim that there is an existing “security >>>>>> problem” on the Internet related directly to blocks being used outside >>>>>> the >>>>>> registrant’s “immediate physical control.” >>>>>> Maybe the proposal would be easier to understand if it was simplified >>>>>> to something like “Addresses may only be utilized by networks that the >>>>>> registrant has immediate physical control of.”? >>>>>> Because then it would be easier to block and filter content, making >>>>>> it safer for the community? >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Mike Burns >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:* Srinivas (Sunny) Chendi <[email protected]> >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 21, 2023 7:30 PM >>>>>> *To:* [email protected] >>>>>> *Subject:* [sig-policy] Re: New version: prop-148 Clarification - >>>>>> Leasing of Resources is not Acceptable >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Secretariat Impact Assessment: prop-148-v004 >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> APNIC notes that this proposal suggests explicitly stating in the >>>>>> APNIC Internet Number Resources policy document that leasing of >>>>>> addresses is not permitted in the APNIC region. >>>>>> >>>>>> Questions/Comments: >>>>>> ------------------- >>>>>> - Can the authors provide a clear definition of what is considered >>>>>> 'leasing'? >>>>>> >>>>>> - How do the authors propose APNIC verifies that IP addresses are >>>>>> being leased and how often do they suggest APNIC should be checking? >>>>>> >>>>>> - Does this proposal apply to all existing delegations or only those >>>>>> addresses delegated after the proposal is implemented (if it reaches >>>>>> consensus)? >>>>>> >>>>>> - How does this proposal apply to account holders who have previously >>>>>> received delegations and use the IP addresses under different >>>>>> entities >>>>>> (for example, subsidiaries using them in different locations)? >>>>>> >>>>>> Implementation: >>>>>> --------------- >>>>>> This proposal may require changes to APNIC systems. If this proposal >>>>>> reaches consensus, implementation may be completed within three >>>>>> months. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Sunny >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/08/2023 2:59 am, Shaila Sharmin wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear SIG members, >>>>>> >>>>>> A new version of the proposal "prop-148-v004: Clarification - Leasing >>>>>> of Resources is not Acceptable" has been sent to the Policy SIG for >>>>>> review. >>>>>> >>>>>> Information about earlier versions is available from: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-148 >>>>>> >>>>>> You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal: >>>>>> >>>>>> - Do you support or oppose the proposal? >>>>>> - Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear? >>>>>> - What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more >>>>>> effective? >>>>>> >>>>>> Please find the text of the proposal below. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Bertrand, Shaila, and Anupam >>>>>> APNIC Policy SIG Chairs >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> prop-148-v004: Clarification - Leasing of Resources is not Acceptable >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Proposer: Jordi Palet Martinez ([email protected]) >>>>>> Amrita Choudhury ([email protected]) >>>>>> Fernando Frediani ([email protected]) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Problem statement >>>>>> -------------------- >>>>>> RIRs have been conceived to manage, allocate and assign resources >>>>>> according to need, in such way that a LIR/ISP has addresses to be >>>>>> able >>>>>> to directly connect its customers based on justified need. Addresses >>>>>> are >>>>>> not, therefore, a property with which to trade or do business. >>>>>> >>>>>> When the justification of the need disappears or changes, for >>>>>> whatever >>>>>> reasons, the expected thing would be to return said addresses to the >>>>>> RIR, otherwise according to Section 4.1. (“The original basis of the >>>>>> delegation remains valid”) and 4.1.2. (“Made for a specific purpose >>>>>> that >>>>>> no longer exists, or based on information that is later found to be >>>>>> false or incomplete”) of the policy manual, APNIC is not enforced to >>>>>> renew the license. An alternative is to transfer these resources >>>>>> using >>>>>> the appropriate transfer policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> If the leasing of addresses is authorized, contrary to the original >>>>>> spirit of the policies and the very existence of the RIRs, the link >>>>>> between connectivity and addresses disappears, which also poses >>>>>> security >>>>>> problems, since, in the absence of connectivity, the resource holder >>>>>> who >>>>>> has received the license to use the addresses does not have immediate >>>>>> physical control to manage/filter them, which can cause damage to the >>>>>> entire community. >>>>>> >>>>>> Therefore, it should be made explicit in the Policies that the >>>>>> Internet >>>>>> Resources should not be leased “per se”, but only as part of a >>>>>> connectivity service, as it was documented with the original need >>>>>> justification. >>>>>> >>>>>> The existing policies of APNIC are not explicit about that, however >>>>>> current policies do not regard the leasing of addresses as >>>>>> acceptable, >>>>>> if they are not an integral part of a connectivity service. >>>>>> Specifically, the justification of the need would not be valid for >>>>>> those >>>>>> blocks of addresses whose purpose is not to directly connect >>>>>> customers >>>>>> of an LIR/ISP, and consequently the renewal of the annual license for >>>>>> the use of the addresses would not be valid either. Sections 3.2.6. >>>>>> (Address ownership), 3.2.7. (Address stockpiling) and 3.2.8. >>>>>> (Reservations not supported) of the policy manual, are keys on this >>>>>> issue, but an explicit clarification is required. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Objective of policy change >>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>> Despite the fact that the intention in this regard underlies the >>>>>> entire >>>>>> Policy Manual text and is thus applied to justify the need for >>>>>> resources, this proposal makes this aspect explicit by adding the >>>>>> appropriate clarifying text. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. Situation in other regions >>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>> In other RIRs, the leasing of addresses is not authorized either and >>>>>> since it is not explicit in their policy manuals either, this >>>>>> proposal >>>>>> will be presented as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nothing is currently mentioned in RIPE about this and it is not >>>>>> acceptable as a justification of the need. In AFRINIC and LACNIC, the >>>>>> staff has confirmed that address leasing is not considered as valid >>>>>> for >>>>>> the justification. In ARIN it is not considered valid as >>>>>> justification >>>>>> of need. >>>>>> >>>>>> A similar proposal is under discussion in LACNIC and ARIN. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 4. Proposed policy solution >>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>> 5.8. Leasing of Internet Number Resources >>>>>> >>>>>> In the case of Internet number resources delegated by APNIC or a NIR, >>>>>> the justification of the need implies the need to use on their own >>>>>> infrastructure and/or network connectivity services provided to >>>>>> customers. As a result, any form of IP address leasing is >>>>>> unacceptable, >>>>>> nor does it justify the need, unless otherwise justified in the >>>>>> original >>>>>> request. Even for networks that are not connected to the Internet, >>>>>> leasing of IP addresses is not permitted, because such sites can >>>>>> request >>>>>> direct assignments from APNIC or the relevant NIR and, in the case of >>>>>> IPv4, use private addresses or arrange market transfers. >>>>>> >>>>>> APNIC should proactively investigate those cases and also initiate >>>>>> the >>>>>> investigation in case of reports by means of a form, email address or >>>>>> other means developed by APNIC. >>>>>> >>>>>> If any form of leasing, regardless of when the delegation has been >>>>>> issued, is confirmed by an APNIC investigation, it will be considered >>>>>> a >>>>>> policy violation and revocation may apply against any account holders >>>>>> who are leasing or using them for any purposes not specified in the >>>>>> initial request. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 5. Advantages / Disadvantages >>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>> Advantages: >>>>>> Fulfilling the objective above indicated and making the policy clear. >>>>>> >>>>>> Disadvantages: >>>>>> None. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 6. Impact on resource holders >>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>> None. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 7. References >>>>>> ------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/proposals/2022/ARIN_prop_308_v2/ >>>>>> >>>>>> https://politicas.lacnic.net/politicas/detail/id/LAC-2022-2/language/en >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Shaila Sharmin >>>>>> +8801811447396 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ********************************************** >>>>>> IPv4 is over >>>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>>>>> http://www.theipv6company.com >>>>>> The IPv6 Company >>>>>> >>>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged >>>>>> or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use >>>>>> of >>>>>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >>>>>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >>>>>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >>>>>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >>>>>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >>>>>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >>>>>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >>>>>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this >>>>>> communication and delete it. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> -- >>>>> Kind regards. >>>>> Lu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ********************************************** >>>>> IPv4 is over >>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>>>> http://www.theipv6company.com >>>>> The IPv6 Company >>>>> >>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged >>>>> or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use >>>>> of >>>>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >>>>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >>>>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >>>>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >>>>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >>>>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >>>>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >>>>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this >>>>> communication and delete it. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ********************************************** >>>> IPv4 is over >>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>>> http://www.theipv6company.com >>>> The IPv6 Company >>>> >>>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or >>>> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of >>>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >>>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >>>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >>>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >>>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >>>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >>>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this >>>> communication and delete it. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>> >>> >>> >>> ********************************************** >>> IPv4 is over >>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>> http://www.theipv6company.com >>> The IPv6 Company >>> >>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or >>> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of >>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this >>> communication and delete it. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> >> >> >> ********************************************** >> IPv4 is over >> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> http://www.theipv6company.com >> The IPv6 Company >> >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or >> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of >> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this >> communication and delete it. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of > the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or > use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including > attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal > offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this > communication and delete it. > > _______________________________________________ > SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
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