Nobody needs to be elected to participate in the PDP, nobody needs to be elected to contribute to improve things in any aspect of the community. It is just a matter of willingness to do the right thing, never mind you don’t have a personal or business interest on that.
Regards, Jordi @jordipalet > El 2 sept 2023, a las 12:24, Lu Heng <[email protected]> escribió: > > Law maker are elected representative of majority population. > > Jordi, remind me who elected you? > > On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 18:20 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Ignorance of the law doesn’t mean you’re bind to it. Same here. >> >> The PDP is open to all, is not about 20 or 2.000.000 people. All Internet >> users on the earth can participate, is not an exclusive club. >> >> Regards, >> Jordi >> >> @jordipalet >> >> >>> El 2 sept 2023, a las 12:13, Lu Heng <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> escribió: >>> >>> >>> ignorance does not constitute consensus. >>> >>> And that is the fundamental problem of this list, a small group of people >>> think they can represent all internet user on earth. >>> >>> No, you can not, policy pass here does not reflect true community wish, >>> policy pass here only reflect the consensus of people participating in the >>> discussion, in which by my count, only 20 people? >>> >>> People haven’t pay attention or don’t care, does not mean they agree what >>> you. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 18:09 Lu Heng <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> Standard form contract favors the party who not doing the drafting. >>>> >>>> And I would say many members disagree, a simple questionnaire to members >>>> “do you want to own your IPs?”receives overwhelming positive answer. >>>> >>>> And it’s just a policy of a private limited company. >>>> >>>> It does not constitute law. >>>> >>>> And this part of policy need to be changed and updated in the future to >>>> reflect the market reality. >>>> >>>> On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 18:05 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy >>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> Existing policies, with the consensus of the community, which are part of >>>>> the membership agreement and consequently accepted by all the members: >>>>> >>>>> 4.0. Resource License >>>>> >>>>> It is contrary to the goals of this document and is not in the interests >>>>> of the Internet community as a whole, for Internet number resources to be >>>>> considered freehold property. >>>>> >>>>> Neither delegation nor registration confers ownership of resources. >>>>> Account holders that use them are considered “custodians” rather than >>>>> “owners” of the resource and are not entitled to sell or otherwise >>>>> transfer that resource to other parties outside the provisions in this >>>>> document. >>>>> >>>>> Internet resources are regarded as public resources that should only be >>>>> distributed according to demonstrated need. >>>>> >>>>> The policies in this document are based upon the understanding that >>>>> globally unique unicast address space is licensed for use rather than >>>>> owned. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Jordi >>>>> >>>>> @jordipalet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> El 2 sept 2023, a las 11:59, Lu Heng <[email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> escribió: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Jordi: >>>>>> >>>>>> Who define those legal rights? >>>>>> >>>>>> Who said it is not a property? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 17:55 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy >>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>> Really ugly and unfortunate that you compare those things, and I guess >>>>>>> against code of conduct. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I just can insist that you can’t sell something that is not a property. >>>>>>> You have the usage rights. You can own a house or have the right to use >>>>>>> it (rental), and the right to use it may allow you to transfer that >>>>>>> right to another person or not. So not the same reselling that >>>>>>> transferring addresses, is not just a matter of wording, but about the >>>>>>> real meaning of those words, from a legal perspective. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Jordi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> @jordipalet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> El 2 sept 2023, a las 11:43, Lu Heng <[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> escribió: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Jordi: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tell me the difference between reselling and transferring? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does it equal to the 500 USD someone paid to the girl he met last >>>>>>>> night? Of course it’s not prostitution, just little goodwill. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nominally a transfer involve that 500USD I just mentioned. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 17:39 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy >>>>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> It is true that RIPE is too liberal, but not so to allow reselling >>>>>>>>> addresses, because those aren’t a property. You can transfer them. >>>>>>>>> That’s it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> Jordi >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> @jordipalet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> El 30 ago 2023, a las 10:40, Lu Heng <[email protected] >>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> escribió: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Jordi: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That must be a long time ago. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> RIPE's current policy is you ask you get, no need to provide a >>>>>>>>>> reason. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of course that means you can get IP for leasing, you can even get IP >>>>>>>>>> for resale. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 16:32, jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy >>>>>>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Mike, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There is no inaccuracy on the RIPE point. Long time ago I made the >>>>>>>>>>> question to RIPE staff and a justification on an original request >>>>>>>>>>> for IP resources for leasing will not have been accepted as a valid >>>>>>>>>>> one. Not talking about transfers here, just original justification >>>>>>>>>>> of the need. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Working in a new version following all the inputs. Tks! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>> Jordi >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> @jordipalet >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> El 22 ago 2023, a las 16:19, Mike Burns <[email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> escribió: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The revised Section 3 contains the same inaccuracy that I have >>>>>>>>>>>> pointed out before in other fora to the authors. >>>>>>>>>>>> Notably the situation described in RIPE below is false. >>>>>>>>>>>> RIPE only applies needs-tests to inbound inter-regional >>>>>>>>>>>> transfers, and in this case leasing them out is a justified use. >>>>>>>>>>>> If you don’t accept my assertion, I invite you to contact RIPE >>>>>>>>>>>> directly. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Can the authors provide a succinct problem statement that states >>>>>>>>>>>> the problem we are trying to solve? >>>>>>>>>>>> The one I can see is the claim that there is an existing “security >>>>>>>>>>>> problem” on the Internet related directly to blocks being used >>>>>>>>>>>> outside the registrant’s “immediate physical control.” >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the proposal would be easier to understand if it was >>>>>>>>>>>> simplified to something like “Addresses may only be utilized by >>>>>>>>>>>> networks that the registrant has immediate physical control of.”? >>>>>>>>>>>> Because then it would be easier to block and filter content, >>>>>>>>>>>> making it safer for the community? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> Mike Burns >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Srinivas (Sunny) Chendi <[email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 7:30 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [sig-policy] Re: New version: prop-148 Clarification - >>>>>>>>>>>> Leasing of Resources is not Acceptable >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Secretariat Impact Assessment: prop-148-v004 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> APNIC notes that this proposal suggests explicitly stating in the >>>>>>>>>>>> APNIC Internet Number Resources policy document that leasing of >>>>>>>>>>>> addresses is not permitted in the APNIC region. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Questions/Comments: >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> - Can the authors provide a clear definition of what is considered >>>>>>>>>>>> 'leasing'? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - How do the authors propose APNIC verifies that IP addresses are >>>>>>>>>>>> being leased and how often do they suggest APNIC should be >>>>>>>>>>>> checking? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - Does this proposal apply to all existing delegations or only >>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>> addresses delegated after the proposal is implemented (if it >>>>>>>>>>>> reaches >>>>>>>>>>>> consensus)? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - How does this proposal apply to account holders who have >>>>>>>>>>>> previously >>>>>>>>>>>> received delegations and use the IP addresses under different >>>>>>>>>>>> entities >>>>>>>>>>>> (for example, subsidiaries using them in different locations)? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Implementation: >>>>>>>>>>>> --------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> This proposal may require changes to APNIC systems. If this >>>>>>>>>>>> proposal >>>>>>>>>>>> reaches consensus, implementation may be completed within three >>>>>>>>>>>> months. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> Sunny >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/08/2023 2:59 am, Shaila Sharmin wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear SIG members, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> A new version of the proposal "prop-148-v004: Clarification - >>>>>>>>>>>>> Leasing of Resources is not Acceptable" has been sent to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Policy SIG for review. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Information about earlier versions is available from: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-148 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Do you support or oppose the proposal? >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear? >>>>>>>>>>>>> - What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more >>>>>>>>>>>>> effective? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Please find the text of the proposal below. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bertrand, Shaila, and Anupam >>>>>>>>>>>>> APNIC Policy SIG Chairs >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> prop-148-v004: Clarification - Leasing of Resources is not >>>>>>>>>>>>> Acceptable >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Proposer: Jordi Palet Martinez ([email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amrita Choudhury ([email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Fernando Frediani ([email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Problem statement >>>>>>>>>>>>> -------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> RIRs have been conceived to manage, allocate and assign resources >>>>>>>>>>>>> according to need, in such way that a LIR/ISP has addresses to be >>>>>>>>>>>>> able >>>>>>>>>>>>> to directly connect its customers based on justified need. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Addresses are >>>>>>>>>>>>> not, therefore, a property with which to trade or do business. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> When the justification of the need disappears or changes, for >>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever >>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons, the expected thing would be to return said addresses to >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> RIR, otherwise according to Section 4.1. (“The original basis of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> delegation remains valid”) and 4.1.2. (“Made for a specific >>>>>>>>>>>>> purpose that >>>>>>>>>>>>> no longer exists, or based on information that is later found to >>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>> false or incomplete”) of the policy manual, APNIC is not enforced >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> renew the license. An alternative is to transfer these resources >>>>>>>>>>>>> using >>>>>>>>>>>>> the appropriate transfer policy. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If the leasing of addresses is authorized, contrary to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> original >>>>>>>>>>>>> spirit of the policies and the very existence of the RIRs, the >>>>>>>>>>>>> link >>>>>>>>>>>>> between connectivity and addresses disappears, which also poses >>>>>>>>>>>>> security >>>>>>>>>>>>> problems, since, in the absence of connectivity, the resource >>>>>>>>>>>>> holder who >>>>>>>>>>>>> has received the license to use the addresses does not have >>>>>>>>>>>>> immediate >>>>>>>>>>>>> physical control to manage/filter them, which can cause damage to >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> entire community. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, it should be made explicit in the Policies that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Internet >>>>>>>>>>>>> Resources should not be leased “per se”, but only as part of a >>>>>>>>>>>>> connectivity service, as it was documented with the original need >>>>>>>>>>>>> justification. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The existing policies of APNIC are not explicit about that, >>>>>>>>>>>>> however >>>>>>>>>>>>> current policies do not regard the leasing of addresses as >>>>>>>>>>>>> acceptable, >>>>>>>>>>>>> if they are not an integral part of a connectivity service. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Specifically, the justification of the need would not be valid >>>>>>>>>>>>> for those >>>>>>>>>>>>> blocks of addresses whose purpose is not to directly connect >>>>>>>>>>>>> customers >>>>>>>>>>>>> of an LIR/ISP, and consequently the renewal of the annual license >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the use of the addresses would not be valid either. Sections >>>>>>>>>>>>> 3.2.6. >>>>>>>>>>>>> (Address ownership), 3.2.7. (Address stockpiling) and 3.2.8. >>>>>>>>>>>>> (Reservations not supported) of the policy manual, are keys on >>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue, but an explicit clarification is required. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Objective of policy change >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Despite the fact that the intention in this regard underlies the >>>>>>>>>>>>> entire >>>>>>>>>>>>> Policy Manual text and is thus applied to justify the need for >>>>>>>>>>>>> resources, this proposal makes this aspect explicit by adding the >>>>>>>>>>>>> appropriate clarifying text. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Situation in other regions >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> In other RIRs, the leasing of addresses is not authorized either >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> since it is not explicit in their policy manuals either, this >>>>>>>>>>>>> proposal >>>>>>>>>>>>> will be presented as well. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing is currently mentioned in RIPE about this and it is not >>>>>>>>>>>>> acceptable as a justification of the need. In AFRINIC and LACNIC, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> staff has confirmed that address leasing is not considered as >>>>>>>>>>>>> valid for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the justification. In ARIN it is not considered valid as >>>>>>>>>>>>> justification >>>>>>>>>>>>> of need. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> A similar proposal is under discussion in LACNIC and ARIN. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Proposed policy solution >>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> 5.8. Leasing of Internet Number Resources >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In the case of Internet number resources delegated by APNIC or a >>>>>>>>>>>>> NIR, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the justification of the need implies the need to use on their >>>>>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure and/or network connectivity services provided to >>>>>>>>>>>>> customers. As a result, any form of IP address leasing is >>>>>>>>>>>>> unacceptable, >>>>>>>>>>>>> nor does it justify the need, unless otherwise justified in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> original >>>>>>>>>>>>> request. Even for networks that are not connected to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Internet, >>>>>>>>>>>>> leasing of IP addresses is not permitted, because such sites can >>>>>>>>>>>>> request >>>>>>>>>>>>> direct assignments from APNIC or the relevant NIR and, in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> case of >>>>>>>>>>>>> IPv4, use private addresses or arrange market transfers. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> APNIC should proactively investigate those cases and also >>>>>>>>>>>>> initiate the >>>>>>>>>>>>> investigation in case of reports by means of a form, email >>>>>>>>>>>>> address or >>>>>>>>>>>>> other means developed by APNIC. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If any form of leasing, regardless of when the delegation has >>>>>>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>>>>> issued, is confirmed by an APNIC investigation, it will be >>>>>>>>>>>>> considered a >>>>>>>>>>>>> policy violation and revocation may apply against any account >>>>>>>>>>>>> holders >>>>>>>>>>>>> who are leasing or using them for any purposes not specified in >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> initial request. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. Advantages / Disadvantages >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Advantages: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Fulfilling the objective above indicated and making the policy >>>>>>>>>>>>> clear. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Disadvantages: >>>>>>>>>>>>> None. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 6. Impact on resource holders >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> None. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 7. References >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/proposals/2022/ARIN_prop_308_v2/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://politicas.lacnic.net/politicas/detail/id/LAC-2022-2/language/en >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Shaila Sharmin >>>>>>>>>>>>> +8801811447396 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ********************************************** >>>>>>>>>>> IPv4 is over >>>>>>>>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/> >>>>>>>>>>> The IPv6 Company >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be >>>>>>>>>>> privileged or confidential. 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