Law maker are elected representative of majority population. Jordi, remind me who elected you?
On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 18:20 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < [email protected]> wrote: > Ignorance of the law doesn’t mean you’re bind to it. Same here. > > The PDP is open to all, is not about 20 or 2.000.000 people. All Internet > users on the earth can participate, is not an exclusive club. > > Regards, > Jordi > > @jordipalet > > > El 2 sept 2023, a las 12:13, Lu Heng <[email protected]> escribió: > > > ignorance does not constitute consensus. > > And that is the fundamental problem of this list, a small group of people > think they can represent all internet user on earth. > > No, you can not, policy pass here does not reflect true community wish, > policy pass here only reflect the consensus of people participating in the > discussion, in which by my count, only 20 people? > > People haven’t pay attention or don’t care, does not mean they agree what > you. > > > > On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 18:09 Lu Heng <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Standard form contract favors the party who not doing the drafting. >> >> And I would say many members disagree, a simple questionnaire to members >> “do you want to own your IPs?”receives overwhelming positive answer. >> >> And it’s just a policy of a private limited company. >> >> It does not constitute law. >> >> And this part of policy need to be changed and updated in the future to >> reflect the market reality. >> >> On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 18:05 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Existing policies, with the consensus of the community, which are part >>> of the membership agreement and consequently accepted by all the members: >>> >>> 4.0. Resource License >>> >>> It is contrary to the goals of this document and is not in the interests >>> of the Internet community as a whole, for Internet number resources to be >>> considered freehold property. >>> >>> Neither delegation nor registration confers ownership of resources. >>> Account holders that use them are considered “custodians” rather than >>> “owners” of the resource and are not entitled to sell or otherwise transfer >>> that resource to other parties outside the provisions in this document. >>> >>> Internet resources are regarded as public resources that should only be >>> distributed according to demonstrated need. >>> The policies in this document are based upon the understanding that >>> globally unique unicast address space is licensed for use rather than owned. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Jordi >>> >>> @jordipalet >>> >>> >>> El 2 sept 2023, a las 11:59, Lu Heng <[email protected]> escribió: >>> >>> Hi Jordi: >>> >>> Who define those legal rights? >>> >>> Who said it is not a property? >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 17:55 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Really ugly and unfortunate that you compare those things, and I guess >>>> against code of conduct. >>>> >>>> I just can insist that you can’t sell something that is not a property. >>>> You have the usage rights. You can own a house or have the right to use it >>>> (rental), and the right to use it may allow you to transfer that right to >>>> another person or not. So not the same reselling that transferring >>>> addresses, is not just a matter of wording, but about the real meaning of >>>> those words, from a legal perspective. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Jordi >>>> >>>> @jordipalet >>>> >>>> >>>> El 2 sept 2023, a las 11:43, Lu Heng <[email protected]> >>>> escribió: >>>> >>>> Hi Jordi: >>>> >>>> Tell me the difference between reselling and transferring? >>>> >>>> Does it equal to the 500 USD someone paid to the girl he met last >>>> night? Of course it’s not prostitution, just little goodwill. >>>> >>>> Nominally a transfer involve that 500USD I just mentioned. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 17:39 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It is true that RIPE is too liberal, but not so to allow reselling >>>>> addresses, because those aren’t a property. You can transfer them. That’s >>>>> it. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Jordi >>>>> >>>>> @jordipalet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> El 30 ago 2023, a las 10:40, Lu Heng <[email protected]> >>>>> escribió: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Jordi: >>>>> >>>>> That must be a long time ago. >>>>> >>>>> RIPE's current policy is you ask you get, no need to provide a reason. >>>>> >>>>> Of course that means you can get IP for leasing, you can even get IP >>>>> for resale. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 16:32, jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Mike, >>>>>> >>>>>> There is no inaccuracy on the RIPE point. Long time ago I made the >>>>>> question to RIPE staff and a justification on an original request for IP >>>>>> resources for leasing will not have been accepted as a valid one. Not >>>>>> talking about transfers here, just original justification of the need. >>>>>> >>>>>> Working in a new version following all the inputs. Tks! >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Jordi >>>>>> >>>>>> @jordipalet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> El 22 ago 2023, a las 16:19, Mike Burns <[email protected]> >>>>>> escribió: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> >>>>>> The revised Section 3 contains the same inaccuracy that I have >>>>>> pointed out before in other fora to the authors. >>>>>> Notably the situation described in RIPE below is false. >>>>>> RIPE only applies needs-tests to inbound inter-regional transfers, >>>>>> and in this case leasing them out is a justified use. >>>>>> If you don’t accept my assertion, I invite you to contact RIPE >>>>>> directly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Can the authors provide a succinct problem statement that states the >>>>>> problem we are trying to solve? >>>>>> The one I can see is the claim that there is an existing “security >>>>>> problem” on the Internet related directly to blocks being used outside >>>>>> the >>>>>> registrant’s “immediate physical control.” >>>>>> Maybe the proposal would be easier to understand if it was simplified >>>>>> to something like “Addresses may only be utilized by networks that the >>>>>> registrant has immediate physical control of.”? >>>>>> Because then it would be easier to block and filter content, making >>>>>> it safer for the community? >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Mike Burns >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:* Srinivas (Sunny) Chendi <[email protected]> >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 21, 2023 7:30 PM >>>>>> *To:* [email protected] >>>>>> *Subject:* [sig-policy] Re: New version: prop-148 Clarification - >>>>>> Leasing of Resources is not Acceptable >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Secretariat Impact Assessment: prop-148-v004 >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> APNIC notes that this proposal suggests explicitly stating in the >>>>>> APNIC Internet Number Resources policy document that leasing of >>>>>> addresses is not permitted in the APNIC region. >>>>>> >>>>>> Questions/Comments: >>>>>> ------------------- >>>>>> - Can the authors provide a clear definition of what is considered >>>>>> 'leasing'? >>>>>> >>>>>> - How do the authors propose APNIC verifies that IP addresses are >>>>>> being leased and how often do they suggest APNIC should be checking? >>>>>> >>>>>> - Does this proposal apply to all existing delegations or only those >>>>>> addresses delegated after the proposal is implemented (if it reaches >>>>>> consensus)? >>>>>> >>>>>> - How does this proposal apply to account holders who have previously >>>>>> received delegations and use the IP addresses under different >>>>>> entities >>>>>> (for example, subsidiaries using them in different locations)? >>>>>> >>>>>> Implementation: >>>>>> --------------- >>>>>> This proposal may require changes to APNIC systems. If this proposal >>>>>> reaches consensus, implementation may be completed within three >>>>>> months. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Sunny >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/08/2023 2:59 am, Shaila Sharmin wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear SIG members, >>>>>> >>>>>> A new version of the proposal "prop-148-v004: Clarification - Leasing >>>>>> of Resources is not Acceptable" has been sent to the Policy SIG for >>>>>> review. >>>>>> >>>>>> Information about earlier versions is available from: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-148 >>>>>> >>>>>> You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal: >>>>>> >>>>>> - Do you support or oppose the proposal? >>>>>> - Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear? >>>>>> - What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more >>>>>> effective? >>>>>> >>>>>> Please find the text of the proposal below. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Bertrand, Shaila, and Anupam >>>>>> APNIC Policy SIG Chairs >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> prop-148-v004: Clarification - Leasing of Resources is not Acceptable >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Proposer: Jordi Palet Martinez ([email protected]) >>>>>> Amrita Choudhury ([email protected]) >>>>>> Fernando Frediani ([email protected]) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Problem statement >>>>>> -------------------- >>>>>> RIRs have been conceived to manage, allocate and assign resources >>>>>> according to need, in such way that a LIR/ISP has addresses to be >>>>>> able >>>>>> to directly connect its customers based on justified need. Addresses >>>>>> are >>>>>> not, therefore, a property with which to trade or do business. >>>>>> >>>>>> When the justification of the need disappears or changes, for >>>>>> whatever >>>>>> reasons, the expected thing would be to return said addresses to the >>>>>> RIR, otherwise according to Section 4.1. (“The original basis of the >>>>>> delegation remains valid”) and 4.1.2. (“Made for a specific purpose >>>>>> that >>>>>> no longer exists, or based on information that is later found to be >>>>>> false or incomplete”) of the policy manual, APNIC is not enforced to >>>>>> renew the license. An alternative is to transfer these resources >>>>>> using >>>>>> the appropriate transfer policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> If the leasing of addresses is authorized, contrary to the original >>>>>> spirit of the policies and the very existence of the RIRs, the link >>>>>> between connectivity and addresses disappears, which also poses >>>>>> security >>>>>> problems, since, in the absence of connectivity, the resource holder >>>>>> who >>>>>> has received the license to use the addresses does not have immediate >>>>>> physical control to manage/filter them, which can cause damage to the >>>>>> entire community. >>>>>> >>>>>> Therefore, it should be made explicit in the Policies that the >>>>>> Internet >>>>>> Resources should not be leased “per se”, but only as part of a >>>>>> connectivity service, as it was documented with the original need >>>>>> justification. >>>>>> >>>>>> The existing policies of APNIC are not explicit about that, however >>>>>> current policies do not regard the leasing of addresses as >>>>>> acceptable, >>>>>> if they are not an integral part of a connectivity service. >>>>>> Specifically, the justification of the need would not be valid for >>>>>> those >>>>>> blocks of addresses whose purpose is not to directly connect >>>>>> customers >>>>>> of an LIR/ISP, and consequently the renewal of the annual license for >>>>>> the use of the addresses would not be valid either. Sections 3.2.6. >>>>>> (Address ownership), 3.2.7. (Address stockpiling) and 3.2.8. >>>>>> (Reservations not supported) of the policy manual, are keys on this >>>>>> issue, but an explicit clarification is required. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Objective of policy change >>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>> Despite the fact that the intention in this regard underlies the >>>>>> entire >>>>>> Policy Manual text and is thus applied to justify the need for >>>>>> resources, this proposal makes this aspect explicit by adding the >>>>>> appropriate clarifying text. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. Situation in other regions >>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>> In other RIRs, the leasing of addresses is not authorized either and >>>>>> since it is not explicit in their policy manuals either, this >>>>>> proposal >>>>>> will be presented as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nothing is currently mentioned in RIPE about this and it is not >>>>>> acceptable as a justification of the need. In AFRINIC and LACNIC, the >>>>>> staff has confirmed that address leasing is not considered as valid >>>>>> for >>>>>> the justification. In ARIN it is not considered valid as >>>>>> justification >>>>>> of need. >>>>>> >>>>>> A similar proposal is under discussion in LACNIC and ARIN. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 4. Proposed policy solution >>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>> 5.8. Leasing of Internet Number Resources >>>>>> >>>>>> In the case of Internet number resources delegated by APNIC or a NIR, >>>>>> the justification of the need implies the need to use on their own >>>>>> infrastructure and/or network connectivity services provided to >>>>>> customers. As a result, any form of IP address leasing is >>>>>> unacceptable, >>>>>> nor does it justify the need, unless otherwise justified in the >>>>>> original >>>>>> request. Even for networks that are not connected to the Internet, >>>>>> leasing of IP addresses is not permitted, because such sites can >>>>>> request >>>>>> direct assignments from APNIC or the relevant NIR and, in the case of >>>>>> IPv4, use private addresses or arrange market transfers. >>>>>> >>>>>> APNIC should proactively investigate those cases and also initiate >>>>>> the >>>>>> investigation in case of reports by means of a form, email address or >>>>>> other means developed by APNIC. >>>>>> >>>>>> If any form of leasing, regardless of when the delegation has been >>>>>> issued, is confirmed by an APNIC investigation, it will be considered >>>>>> a >>>>>> policy violation and revocation may apply against any account holders >>>>>> who are leasing or using them for any purposes not specified in the >>>>>> initial request. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 5. Advantages / Disadvantages >>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>> Advantages: >>>>>> Fulfilling the objective above indicated and making the policy clear. >>>>>> >>>>>> Disadvantages: >>>>>> None. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 6. Impact on resource holders >>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>> None. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 7. References >>>>>> ------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/proposals/2022/ARIN_prop_308_v2/ >>>>>> >>>>>> https://politicas.lacnic.net/politicas/detail/id/LAC-2022-2/language/en >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Shaila Sharmin >>>>>> +8801811447396 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ********************************************** >>>>>> IPv4 is over >>>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>>>>> http://www.theipv6company.com >>>>>> The IPv6 Company >>>>>> >>>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged >>>>>> or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use >>>>>> of >>>>>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >>>>>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >>>>>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >>>>>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >>>>>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >>>>>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >>>>>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >>>>>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this >>>>>> communication and delete it. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> -- >>>>> Kind regards. >>>>> Lu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ********************************************** >>>>> IPv4 is over >>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>>>> http://www.theipv6company.com >>>>> The IPv6 Company >>>>> >>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged >>>>> or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use >>>>> of >>>>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >>>>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >>>>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >>>>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >>>>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >>>>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >>>>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >>>>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this >>>>> communication and delete it. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ********************************************** >>>> IPv4 is over >>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>>> http://www.theipv6company.com >>>> The IPv6 Company >>>> >>>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or >>>> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of >>>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >>>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >>>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >>>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >>>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >>>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >>>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this >>>> communication and delete it. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>> >>> >>> >>> ********************************************** >>> IPv4 is over >>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>> http://www.theipv6company.com >>> The IPv6 Company >>> >>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or >>> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of >>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this >>> communication and delete it. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> >> > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of > the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or > use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including > attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal > offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this > communication and delete it. > > _______________________________________________ > SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
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