Once stabilized, EIS is substantially unchanged in any meaningful way after 5 years.
Submit PROOF to the contrary. Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: Indi [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 11:23 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: CS>blue moons revisited > > We seem to be on different pages here. > When you speak in absolutes, I tend to take it literally. Now > I understand, you speak in absolutes but are "taking a lot on > faith". That's fine for you, but IMO it is irresponsible to > broadcast "EIS unchanges after five years" > armed with only an EC meter and a laser pointer, for the > simple reason that those devices are not enough to *prove* > your claims (in scientific terms). > > I'm sorry if I've upset you, Ode. That was not my intention. > But I do not feel the "onus" you seem to assign to me, as I > am not the one making extravagant claims based on rudimentary > observation; I'm just trying to provide some perspective. > > Peace, > indi > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 08:07:41AM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote: > > At 01:04 PM 10/13/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >> On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 12:08:32PM -0400, Ode Coyote wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > If the container is non reactive > >> > >> That would have to include the lid of course. > >> :) > > > > ## Unless you slosh the contents around, there is no > direct contact > > with the lid. > > > > > >> > there is little air space and all you have is water, water > >> > byproducts and silver..which ISN'T photo reactive, then it has > >> > nothing to change into. > >> > >> Yes, but litlle air space isn't zero air space, and your > container is > >> bound to contain *something* besides pure H2O and silver ions. > > > > ## If they don't react in a few days, they probably won't, ever. > > Contaminants DO cause problems and sometimes glass itself > can leach > > out them over time if contaminants have impregnated the glass. > > But that's not the topic in discussion. The topic is change of the > > EIS itself, in LONG term storage..not.. changing. > > Generally if it does change, it will do so within a few > days and if > > it doesn't [and most doesn't] there are no extraneous problems that > > are relevant to the "EIS" itself. > > > > > >> > You do get some silver hydroxide formation after a few > days, but > >> > once the EIS has "stabilized", it stays the same, light or dark. > >> > >> If it is perfectly sealed, perhaps. Otherwise no. > > > > ## You have years of observation to back that up? > > Due to equalized inner and out gas pressures, any tight seal is > > essentially perfect. > > > > > >> > If the EIS was made past the saturation points, it may > continue to > >> > stabilize for a month or so and make compounds out of dissolved > >> > water byproduct gasses, none of which are photo reactive. > >> > In that case, you'll see a visual change...generally > gone yellow. > >> > >> Actually, *any* visual change implies chemical reaction, usually > >> induced or facilitated by light or heat. > > > > ## Heat and light will makes EIS cross some reaction thresholds for > > sure, but only if the water is contaminated with something > to react with. > > "Contaminated" EIS is not the topic of discussion. The > EIS itself is > > not light sensitive. If it gets too COLD, it can lower its > saturation > > point and particulates crystalize out, but boiling > stabilized EIS has > > not caused it to change in my experience. > > Too much heat while *making it* HAS made a difference in my > > experience, but that's BEFORE stabilization where excess Brownian > > motion makes for a high reaction rate before ions are > protected by bonds with the water. > > The only way that light plays a role is with the addition of > > electrons making ions into metallic silver and the only way those > > electrons can be added is via surface contact with metallic semi > > conductive glass components serving as a rather poor solar > panel and > > the silica as a capacitor. Electrons can't exist in a free > state in > > water. I have not seen this happen to the extent of significantly > > changing an EC reading even after the batch has sat on a > South facing > > window sill for years and years. > > Yes, "some" batches do change, but those are *contaminated* > > batches... a distraction to this context of *not* contaminated EIS > > changing in the sunlight. > > > > > >> > You cannot make a vacuum in a container full of > water...vapor will > >> > fill it to saturation. > >> > >> Practically all commercially distributed carbonated > beverages ship in > >> gas-tight packaging... :) > > > > ## Gas tight and a vacuum are two completely different > animals.. and > > gas tight has a LOT to do with pressure differentials and > what is in > > the container. > > Making a gas tight *compressed* Hydrogen container is virtually > > impossible, but at atmospheric pressure, not very hard. > > At highish pressures, you can even force oil through iron > and bronze > > for oil impregnated bushings. > > > > > >> > If the internal pressure is the same as the external, there's no > >> reason for > >> > any gases to exchange though a seal. > >> > >> That is incorrect, fluctuation in barometric pressure does > cause gas to pass > >> through, otherwise airtight packaging would rarely be necessary. > > > > ## Most lids used are air tight by YOUR definition > "because" they were > > made for food. > > Barometric pressure changes change faster than contents can leach > > through a container wall, so sure, there will be an > impregnation flux > > going on, but that takes more time than a pressure change > takes to change > > the other way. > > There is a matter of exposed surface area too. A full > bottle with a > > narrow neck has very little, so even if it does leak some, there is > > little effect. > > > >> I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I just can't agree with your premises nor > >> your conclusion on this one. > >> I'll have to stand by my original statement: You have not > come close to > >> proving > >> that your ionic silver solution was unchanged after five > years, and frankly > >> it would be a miracle if you did end up with that result. > > indi > > > > ## Well, that's a opinion built on some flawed theory so > far as I can tell. > > Is it backed by experience? > > What sort of experience?? > > For one, I don't see how sunlight can change a non > photo-reactive ion > > into anything else without some intermediary intrusion and > some other > > component added to become something else with...nor have I > seen it happen > > without explanation within measurable parameters. > > If there is contamination, maybe so, but that falls out of > the context > > of the discussion. > > Contamination is another subject. > > > > I'll hand it over on the absolutes, but none of us have > the means to > > measure or even observe absolutes. > > Is any given batch ABSOLUTELY the same? How can I know? > > All I have is a good EC meter and a laser pointer with > dusty time faded > > notes describing numerous batches within realistic parameters of > > conductivity , TE, dropout, plate out, color, turbidity and general > > appearance. > > There ARE no absolutes with an EC meter or eyeballs, only > reasonable > > parameters > > Even the "right" tools encounter parameters and labs use averages. > > > > IF any changes have happened, [within the context of this > discussion as > > per reasonably *uncontaminated* EIS where things go right ] > they haven't > > gone out of those parameters, therefore I can't tell that > there is a > > difference, so in "practical" terms......there isn't one. > > If a batch does observably change, it does so fairly > quickly and usually > > STOPS changing over the long term. Usually I can trace the > change to > > contamination, sometimes I don't know why, but none of > those batches have > > any relevance to those that DON'T observably change. > > Call that a miracle if you like. > > In my world, miracles are the exception, not the rule and > in my well > > lighted environment where windows almost exceed wall space > and window > > sills are shelving and I don't use colored glass and do use food > > containers with food lids which by your definition are well > sealed.... > > changed batches are an exception. > > > > The point is "change over the long term" and even the BAD > batches don't > > generally change...they stay bad for years and years, with a few > > exceptions, bad the same way all that time. > > Some of the exceptions have proven to be very instructive > about why they > > are bad, also revealing observable facts that fly in the > face of some of > > the theories, particularly where color is concerned in > terms of *this AND > > that* vs the usual simplistic *this OR that*. > > > > Perhaps now we can discuss what sort of changes YOU have > observed as a > > rule and get down to why and how they may have changed [and > when], rather > > than simply stating that my experience of over ten years of > DOING this, > > is impossible. > > Just because you have justified why you can't jump over a > turtle doesn't > > mean that I couldn't have jumped over a lot of them when I > don't have a > > bunch of hear say theory making turtles too tall, keeping > me from trying. > > DID it, beats any theories of can't, every time. > > Saying that I can't, doesn't prove a danged thing. > > You are going to have to prove that I didn't. > > But the only way you will be able to prove it, is to do it > > yourself....get going. > > If you fail, I might be able to tell you how not > to...having done so a > > whole lot of times. > > > > It ain't like I haven't tripped over herds of turtles and > filled a lot > > of drains with crap CS. > > ..or heard a whole lot of disprovable mixed context BS > along the way. > > > > Ode > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > At 02:33 PM 10/10/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >> >> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 01:57:20PM +0000, M. G. Devour wrote: > >> >> > Someone asks Ken: > >> >> > > >> What mehod did you use to verify that it was > still ionic and > >> >> > > >> unchanged? > >> >> > > >> >> > Ken wrote: > >> >> > > > ## EC meter. > >> >> > > > Colloids don't conduct electricity. > >> >> > > >> >> > Indi replies: > >> >> > > That is incorrect. Even tap water will conduct electricity. > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> What I mean is that measuring for conductivity is no > guarantee of ionic > >> >> silver specifically, particularly if the solution in > question is > >> five years > >> >> old. Truly gas-tight containers certainly exist, but > are not the > >> norm (that's > >> >> the reason sealed packaging exists). If you place your > solution in a > >> bottle > >> >> or jar and just screw the lid on, five years later you > will have had > >> >> all sorts > >> >> of chemical activity going on in that container. > (unless it was stored in > >> >> the dark in a vacuum, and the cap as well as the > container is glasss). > >> >> You can > >> >> measure for conductivity, but that will not give proof > of a given > >> >> solution being > >> >> "unchanged". > >> >> > >> >> I don't mean to get into an argument or anything, but > it's just the way > >> >> things are. Ionic solutions are volatile (have a short > shelf life), > >> and are > >> >> photo-sensitive by nature. That is why medicinal ionic > solutions (for > >> >> insstance those commonly known as "iodine" and > "mercurachrome") > >> always came > >> >> packaged in brown glass bottles. > >> >> > >> >> When someone tells me he kept some ionic solution for > five years and > >> >> measuring for conductivity "proved" the solution was > still pristine, > >> >> I feel obligated to point out that he has not proved > that at all. > >> >> It is hard enough to determine proper facts in this > field of study, > >> after all. > >> >> > >> >> BTW, one can easily test this at home; measure the > conductivity of a > >> jar of > >> >> plain distilled water, then store the jar for a few months, then > >> >> measure again. > >> >> You will see much more conductivity after. :) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing > Colloidal Silver. > >> >> > >> >> Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: > http://silverlist.org > >> >> > >> >> To post, address your message to: [email protected] > >> >> > >> >> Address Off-Topic messages to: [email protected] > >> >> > >> >> The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are > currently down... > >> >> > >> >> List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > >> >> Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1721 - Release Date: > >> >> 10/12/2008 12:00 PM > >> > > >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. > >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > >> Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1724 - Release Date: > >> 10/14/2008 2:02 AM > > > >
