This is a very valid point. However not being familiar with the case you point out I can not comment on whether it was the poison or the break down products that killed these children. Can you provide further documentation of the case. E coli in and of itself is enough kill a child due to its effects on the kidneys.
In founder, a condition that causes the hoof in a horse to lose capillaries due to toxins and detritus from HEALTHY bacteria in the gut, the bone in the hoof can drop through the bottom of the sole due to its lose of supporting structures. I am not saying all detritus is benign, just that not all die off procducts are harmful or toxic. Some of the reaction in horses that founder are due to a change in pH of the blood as as a result of the break down products. Much of this can be counter acted in a horse with anti-inflammatories. Anti-toxins are not required to save the foot. The point being that to classify all die off reactions as producing toxins may be inaccurate and fear inducing. Rather than focus on the unknown and cause fear I find it more productive to focus on preventing accumulation of such products by what ever means available. And not assuming that all break down products are toxic. I see this fear on other lists that I own and they are simply unwarranted in many cases. Sometimes it is a irritation reaction to a change in pH of the gut that results in say diarrhea. It is not "toxins" in this case but an acid pH that draws water into the gut. There are many mechanisms involved in these reactions that we know little about. But that is not a reason to classify them all as toxic or Herxheimer and cause unnecessary concern. Toxin implies lethal or poisonous -- that is not always the case. Garnet On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 21:34, Jonathan B. Britten wrote: > Just to give some idea of how complex this topic is, and how important: > > In Japan several years ago, a number of children died from e-coli > O-157. The cause of infection was never determined with certainty; > some even suspected that the cult AUM Shinrikyo had poisoned water > tanks on apartment roofs, as all the infected persons supposedly lived > in such complexes. For our purposes though, the important point was > the some doctors evidently erred in attacking the bacteria either too > aggressively or too late; it was evidently toxins released from the > body of the dead bacteria that took the lives of the children. > > I am not a doctor so I can not even speculate about all the > implications and ramifications for CS users. Perhaps someone else > can advise us. > > > JBB > > > > On Friday, Nov 5, 2004, at 23:51 Asia/Tokyo, Garnet wrote: > > > In the interest of semantics -- not all the "die off" products of > > pathogens are toxins. Toxins are injurious to health. But not all > > detritus / debris from dying or dead pathogens are injurious, however > > they do present a load that the system must remove. > > > > It may serve to be specific that these "bread down products" are not > > ALL > > toxins, in that the term toxin can cause unwarranted fear and we all > > know about the placebo effect. > > > > While detritus can cause a herxheimer, initially defined by Karl > > Herxheimer, a German dermatologist 1861 - 1942, caused by the release > > of > > protein antigens after treatment for syphyllis and causing an allergic > > reaction, not all detritus causes an adverse reaction. > > > > Break down products or "detritus" imply the need to clear the material > > but does not imply the same level of possible toxic reaction. Perhaps > > this will reduce the fear some people have of using CS, in the early > > stages of their exploration of its use, and will serve to encourage > > them > > to address the need to clear the detritus by appropriate means. Be it > > drinking large amounts of pure water, acidifying, blood purifiers, > > liver > > and kidney support and cleanses etc. > > > > A good discussion of the many methods for aiding the body in clearing > > the detritus AND toxins of pathogen die off would be a great addition > > to > > this list. > > > > Garnet > > > > ======================= > > http://www.whonamedit.com/doctor.cfm/2641.html > > > > Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction > > A transient inflammatory reaction following treatment with Salvarsan, > > mercury, or antibiotics of early and later stages of syphilis. > > > > ============================= > > http://www.whonamedit.com/synd.cfm/3161.html > > > > Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction > > > > Also known as: > > Herxheimer's reaction > > > > Associated persons: > > Karl Herxheimer > > > > Adolf Jarisch > > > > > > Description: > > A transient inflammatory reaction following treatment with Salvarsan, > > mercury, or antibiotics of early and later stages of syphilis. It is > > seen in 50% of patients with primary syphilis and about 90% of patients > > with secondary syphilis. Also seen in other diseases, such as > > borreliosis, brucellosis, typhoid fever, and trichinellosis. It is > > manifested by fever, chills, headache, myalgias, and exacerbation of > > cutaneous lesions. Duration is normally only a few hours. The intensity > > of the reaction reflects the intensity of inflammation present. > > Herxheimer observed his reaction on patients he had treated with > > mercury. > > ==================================== > > > > http://dictionary.reference.com > > > > > > Toxin - A poisonous substance, especially a protein, that is produced > > by > > living cells or organisms and is capable of causing disease when > > introduced into the body tissues but is often also capable of inducing > > neutralizing antibodies or antitoxins. > > > > Detritus - Loose fragments or grains that have been worn away from > > rock. > > a. Disintegrated or eroded matter: the detritus of past > > civilizations. > > b. Accumulated material; debris: > > > > On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 04:27, [email protected] wrote: > >> In a message dated 11/4/04 5:02:30 PM Central Standard Time, > >> [email protected] writes: > >> > >>> The thing I worry about is not > >>> the silver doing damage but the neuro toxins produced on the die-off > >>> doing > >>> the damage. Slow recovery is better than a fast one if you are > >>> going to > >>> cause a large die-off and maybe brain damage due to large neuro > >>> toxins > >>> produced by the die-off of the bacteria. > >> > >> > >> Hi Dave. We do see this in the horses being treated for EPM with CS > >> -- a die-off of the protozoa being dumped into the bloodstream, which > >> you could consider neuro toxins since the protozoa inhabit > >> neurological cells -- so they get worse before they get better. But > >> it doesn't result in brain damage - in fact the horses that have > >> cerebral lesions invariably get better too. But I agree with you -- > >> slow recovery is better than a fast one, particularly if you're not > >> dealing with a life-threatening situation. Frequently, with the > >> horses, we ARE dealing with a life-threatening situation -- well, > >> ultimately all EPM horses are life-threatened -- and we don't need to > >> be being conservative. Just thought you might be a little bit > >> comforted by the fact that brain damage just isn't part of the > >> package. MA > > > > > > -- > > The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. > > > > Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org > > > > To post, address your message to: [email protected] > > Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html > > > > Address Off-Topic messages to: [email protected] > > OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html > > > > List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]> > > >
