Re: CS>Pathogen Die Off Products - Detritus or Toxins?

[Jonathan B. Britten]

Garnet,

I can not provide any further documentation;  it has been several years 
since this outbreak.

So far as we CS experimenters are concerned:  these children were 
treated in hospitals and died under the care of medical doctors.   I do 
not know whether self-care could be any worse than that!   I do vaguely 
recall, though, that the doctors quickly learned enough to alter their 
treatment.

0-157 has killed Americans as well -- hamburgers as I recall were the 
contaminated food in one of the worst outbreaks.    It would be 
wonderful to know more about this topic, but I do not have the goods.   
I hope someone else can inform us.   Sorry.

My own interest in this topic stems from a strong and long-standing 
desire to see millions of ordinary people armed with simple, portable 
self-testing kinesiology tools in order to self-test their own food and 
water, anytime, anywhere.

These people would be what I call "frontline human sensors" not only 
against ordinary hazards, but also against bioterrorism.

I lectured once on this topic at a bioterrorism conference,  but fear 
the idea went into the "crackpot" folder.    Time will tell.    But the 
idea is rather hard to promote, alas,  and needs extensive testing to 
determine whether or not it is feasible.    I keep hoping to meet 
someone who can help develop the concept. . . .



JBB


On Saturday, Nov 6, 2004, at 22:36 Asia/Tokyo, Garnet wrote:

This is a very valid point. However not being familiar with the case 
you
point out I can not comment on whether it was the poison or the break
down products that killed these children. Can you provide further
documentation of the case. E coli in and of itself is enough kill a
child due to its effects on the kidneys.

In founder, a condition that causes the hoof in a horse to lose
capillaries due to toxins and detritus from HEALTHY bacteria in the
gut,  the bone in the hoof can drop through the bottom of the sole due
to its lose of supporting structures.

I am not saying all detritus is benign, just that not all die off
procducts are harmful or toxic. Some of the reaction in horses that
founder are due to a change in pH of the blood as as a result of the
break down products.

Much of this can be counter acted in a horse with anti-inflammatories.
Anti-toxins are not required to save the foot.

The point being that to classify all die off reactions as producing
toxins may be inaccurate and fear inducing. Rather than focus on the
unknown and cause fear I find it more productive to focus on preventing
accumulation of such products by what ever means available. And not
assuming that all break down products are toxic.

I see this fear on other lists that I own and they are simply
unwarranted in many cases. Sometimes it is a irritation reaction to a
change in pH of the gut that results in say diarrhea. It is not 
"toxins"
in this case but an acid pH that draws water into the gut.

There are many mechanisms involved in these reactions that we know
little about. But that is not a reason to classify them all as toxic or
Herxheimer and cause unnecessary concern. Toxin implies lethal or
poisonous -- that is not always the case.

Garnet

On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 21:34, Jonathan B. Britten wrote:
Just to give some idea of how complex this topic is, and how 
important:

In Japan several years ago,  a number of children died from e-coli
O-157.   The cause of infection was never determined with certainty;
some even suspected that the cult AUM Shinrikyo had poisoned water
tanks on apartment roofs,  as all the infected persons supposedly 
lived
in such complexes.    For our purposes though,  the important point 
was
the some doctors evidently erred in attacking the bacteria either too
aggressively or too late;  it was evidently toxins released from the
body of the dead bacteria that took the lives of the children.

I am not a doctor so I can not even speculate about all the
implications and ramifications for CS users.    Perhaps someone else
can advise us.


JBB



On Friday, Nov 5, 2004, at 23:51 Asia/Tokyo, Garnet wrote:

In the interest of semantics --  not all the "die off" products of
pathogens are toxins. Toxins are injurious to health. But not all
detritus / debris from dying or dead pathogens are injurious, however
they do present a load that the system must remove.

It may serve to be specific that these "bread down products" are not
ALL
toxins, in that the term  toxin can cause unwarranted fear and we all
know about the placebo effect.

While detritus can cause a herxheimer, initially defined by Karl
Herxheimer, a German dermatologist 1861 - 1942, caused by the release
of
protein antigens after treatment for syphyllis and causing an 
allergic
reaction, not all detritus causes an adverse reaction.

Break down products or "detritus" imply the  need to clear the 
material
but does not imply the same level of possible toxic reaction. Perhaps
this will reduce the fear some people have of using CS, in the early
stages of their exploration of its use, and will serve to encourage
them
to address the need to clear the detritus by appropriate means. Be it
drinking large amounts of pure water, acidifying, blood purifiers,
liver
and kidney support and cleanses etc.

A good discussion of the many methods for aiding the body in clearing
the detritus AND toxins of pathogen die off would be a great addition
to
this list.

Garnet

=======================
http://www.whonamedit.com/doctor.cfm/2641.html

Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction
A transient inflammatory reaction following treatment with Salvarsan,
mercury, or antibiotics of early and later stages of syphilis.

=============================
http://www.whonamedit.com/synd.cfm/3161.html

Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction

Also known as:
Herxheimer's reaction

Associated persons:
Karl Herxheimer

Adolf Jarisch


Description:
A transient inflammatory reaction following treatment with Salvarsan,
mercury, or antibiotics of early and later stages of syphilis. It is
seen in 50% of patients with primary syphilis and about 90% of 
patients
with secondary syphilis. Also seen in other diseases, such as
borreliosis, brucellosis, typhoid fever, and trichinellosis. It is
manifested by fever, chills, headache, myalgias, and exacerbation of
cutaneous lesions. Duration is normally only a few hours. The 
intensity
of the reaction reflects the intensity of inflammation present.
Herxheimer observed his reaction on patients he had treated with
mercury.
====================================

http://dictionary.reference.com


Toxin - A poisonous substance, especially a protein, that is produced
by
living cells or organisms and is capable of causing disease when
introduced into the body tissues but is often also capable of 
inducing
neutralizing antibodies or antitoxins.

Detritus - Loose fragments or grains that have been worn away from
rock.
     a. Disintegrated or eroded matter: the detritus of past
        civilizations.
     b. Accumulated material; debris:

On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 04:27, marmar...@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 11/4/04 5:02:30 PM Central Standard Time,
dave.le...@qualityelectronicdesigns.com writes:

The thing I worry about is not
the silver doing damage but the neuro toxins produced on the 
die-off
doing
the damage.  Slow recovery is better than a fast one if you are
going to
cause a large die-off and maybe brain damage due to large neuro
toxins
produced by the die-off of the bacteria.


Hi Dave.  We do see this in the horses being treated for EPM with CS
-- a die-off of the protozoa being dumped into the bloodstream, 
which
you could consider neuro toxins since the protozoa inhabit
neurological cells -- so they get worse before they get better.  But
it doesn't result in brain damage - in fact the horses that have
cerebral lesions invariably get better too.  But I agree with you --
slow recovery is better than a fast one, particularly if you're not
dealing with a life-threatening situation.  Frequently, with the
horses, we ARE dealing with a life-threatening situation -- well,
ultimately all EPM horses are life-threatened -- and we don't need 
to
be being conservative.  Just thought you might be a little bit
comforted by the fact that brain damage just isn't part of the
package.       MA


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