Jeremie, I considered letting them animate in local mode but i decided that the risks outweighed the benefits.
I am just 100% uncomfortable with trusting the animators with Local models. They will start deleting objects and changing heirarchy. So instead I stripped down the rig of unecessary stuff. I took all the cloth controls away and seperated it into a different rig, and then aggressively cut down the amount of keyable params. Its at least manageable now. Are you really comfortable letting the animators animate local models? I don't think I could ever let it happen On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Enrique Caballero < [email protected]> wrote: > Btw, until we get the QFE, I did a very aggressive removal of keyable > parameters and that helped significantly. > > Which is something I should have done a while ago. I was letting them > scale every controller in the rig, as I don't like limiting the animators > freedom. > > Instead i went to the animators, asked them which controllers they usually > scale, and then removed the ability from the rest. > > This helped me get some speed back. Its still slow, but much more useable. > > Thanks Matt, it was your suggestions > > > On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 10:54 AM, Raffaele Fragapane < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Regardelss of whether one might or might not be happy with the feature >> list, I think it should be given to the team that they have put some >> serious effort into keeping in touch with the community and going out of >> their way to integrate into it, even in the face of some serious negativity >> (the hostility here and in other places was pretty high in the beginning). >> >> Given that's always been as much a defining trait of Softimage as the >> software itself might have been, at least a tip of the hat is probably long >> overdue :) >> >> >> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Enrique Caballero < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Yep they are also being incredibly helpful with me. Thanks Softimage >>> Team. I'm getting our IT guy to fill out the paperwork for a QFE now >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Jeremie Passerin >>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> Good to hear that the issue has been reported. This is a big deal for >>>> us here too. >>>> We love Softimage referencing system a lot but are in a situation now >>>> where animator are creating local copy of the rigs just to work around the >>>> issue, which is obviously a big problem for us. >>>> >>>> The new team has impressed me with all the bug fix they did on 2014. >>>> Seeing very old bug fixed is giving me faith in the new team. Keep up the >>>> good work, and I'm crossing my fingers to see that one updated in the next >>>> release ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> On 21 May 2013 05:52, ivan tay <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> HI, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Had an exchange with Enrique. This is a known issue - logged as >>>>> SOFT-7029 - Key Referenced Parameter Slower. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for bringing this up. >>>>> >>>>> -Ivan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Raffaele Fragapane < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Even with no C++ knowledge you should be able to take different >>>>>> routes around it, just to see if the bottleneck is specifically in one of >>>>>> the wrappers or far enough upstream. Give it a shot. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Enrique Caballero < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks raf and everyone for the advice, its really helpful. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I will now reduce their ability to key scaling on the majority of >>>>>>> the rig. I will also try to code my way around it, problem is I don't >>>>>>> know >>>>>>> c++ so I'm stuck with python which I doubt will be able to save me when >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> comes to slow keying. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I did test in 2014 btw, and it is a bit faster, but its still >>>>>>> massively slow. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've sent the scene to Autodesk, we still have a year on >>>>>>> Subscription so hopefully they can send us a QFE >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Raffaele Fragapane < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sounds like a regression. >>>>>>>> I've had rigs with controls in the hundreds of objects with quite a >>>>>>>> few added properties and custom parameters, adding up to packs of >>>>>>>> thousands >>>>>>>> of keyframes at a pop. It's never been blazing fast, even with >>>>>>>> rig-centric >>>>>>>> dedicated commands, but I would have been skinned alive if it took more >>>>>>>> than a second or two to key out a couple thousand curves. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Consider trying to write your way around it to see how pervasive it >>>>>>>> is, and if not too far reaching possibly stop them from staring >>>>>>>> daggers at >>>>>>>> you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Keying a ref model will always be slower, there's no two ways about >>>>>>>> it when you have to deal with delta tracking rather than simply adding >>>>>>>> data >>>>>>>> somewhere, but shouldn't be in that measure, it should be just a few >>>>>>>> percentage points at the most. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Enrique Caballero < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the keys are being set just by pressing the K key and the keying >>>>>>>>> mode set to "Key all Keyable" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> this is the command that gets spit out >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Application.SaveKeyOnKeyable() >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Enrique Caballero < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> thanks guys, >>>>>>>>>> yep I've already sent the scene to Softimage. Its definitely a >>>>>>>>>> Softimage 2013 Sp1 issue though and not scene related. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The parameters that the animators can key is already fairly >>>>>>>>>> limited as I'm pretty careful with keyable parameters. but I will >>>>>>>>>> strip >>>>>>>>>> down what i can for now. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It is slow whether or not the Fcurve editor is open. Basically >>>>>>>>>> setting a key on a gear rig referenced model with 180 objects takes 6 >>>>>>>>>> seconds, a local model is instant. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I've stripped down our workgroup to nothing but gear, same >>>>>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Really quite distressing! The animators are giving me dirty looks! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Raffaele Fragapane < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Have you tried changing how the keys are set? >>>>>>>>>>> 150 objects with the entire local transform set isn't that many >>>>>>>>>>> curves, we have had issues but that's with thousands piled up on >>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>> thousands. >>>>>>>>>>> Lastly, is that with the FCurve editor open or not? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I suggest you send the scene to Soft if it can be packaged up. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Enrique Caballero < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> well its a gear rig so there are a fair but of custom >>>>>>>>>>>> parameters. but not an obscene amount. And as far as I know, no >>>>>>>>>>>> parameters >>>>>>>>>>>> driven by ICE. although I am using the dual quaternion skinning >>>>>>>>>>>> compound >>>>>>>>>>>> for the envelope. I've already tested with this removed and it >>>>>>>>>>>> wasnt the >>>>>>>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have tested in 2014 and it is better, by like 30 % but its >>>>>>>>>>>> still massively slower than it would be if the model was in Local >>>>>>>>>>>> Mode. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Seeing as how well Softimage's referenced model and Deltas work >>>>>>>>>>>> together, it is a major reason we use Softimage here at this >>>>>>>>>>>> studio, I >>>>>>>>>>>> would expect the speed of keyframing to be very fast on referenced >>>>>>>>>>>> models, >>>>>>>>>>>> it should be just as fast I dare say, otherwise its a massive hit >>>>>>>>>>>> on their >>>>>>>>>>>> usability. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have also tested with other rigs as well, Gear rigs, the >>>>>>>>>>>> malcolm rig, and rigs of my own making, its a pretty major speed >>>>>>>>>>>> difference >>>>>>>>>>>> when setting and manipulating keys on referenced models vs local >>>>>>>>>>>> models. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As far as how many fcurves. well... A lot, its an entire rig, >>>>>>>>>>>> its like 150 objects, and we are keying their entire srt. as the >>>>>>>>>>>> animators >>>>>>>>>>>> are currently blocking animation, so they key the entire character >>>>>>>>>>>> at once. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2014 is a bit faster, but not massively so. And we don't have >>>>>>>>>>>> the luxury of moving our pipeline to 2014 right now, our tools are >>>>>>>>>>>> written >>>>>>>>>>>> for 2013 at the moment and we are going through a major tools >>>>>>>>>>>> development >>>>>>>>>>>> phase >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Raffaele Fragapane < >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There are two issues, a regression, which Matt does a good job >>>>>>>>>>>>> of pointing out and that should be fixed in 2014 (to my >>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge, but >>>>>>>>>>>>> haven't tested), and other things we found out when a mix of ICE >>>>>>>>>>>>> and custom >>>>>>>>>>>>> parameters are involved (which is not related to ICE slow at >>>>>>>>>>>>> setting them, >>>>>>>>>>>>> which was addressed in 2013 already, I believe). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 9:28 AM, Jeremie Passerin < >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I heard the same thing here, and also heard it's much faster >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in 2014. Have you tested that ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20 May 2013 16:20, Raffaele Fragapane < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many custom attributes and specifically some feeding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into ICE do you have? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And how many FCurves at a time are we talking about? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We encountered several related issues (and occasionally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solved or had confirmation of them, and some QFEs that helped a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Ivan < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone, please excuse for typos. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20 May, 2013, at 6:02 PM, Enrique Caballero < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Ivan, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you, Yep I do, I will send it to you in a few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minutes, just packaging up the referenced models >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 5:54 PM, ivan tay < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Enrique, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have a scene file for this ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ivan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Email : [email protected] (please remove >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nospam from email) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Enrique Caballero < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry this is in softimage 2013 sp1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 5:15 PM, Enrique Caballero < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am running into a distressing problem. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An animator just came up to me and complained about it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being very slow to key their animation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When they select all of the controls on the rig and drag >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the keys around or simply set a key there is a fairly major >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delay. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just did some testing and verified that it is quite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slow. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *I made the referenced model local, and the speed of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> setting or manipulating keys increased quite dramatically. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are using GEAR rigs on this project, which I've never >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had an issue with before, and I don't really think its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gears fault. Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its something I layered ontop. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone run into this problem before? Our pipeline >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is heavily dependent on referenced models and I have no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plans to use local >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> models in our pipeline at all. I'm hoping that its just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one little >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oversight that is causing this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any insight would be appreciated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Enrique >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship >>>>>>>>>>>>> it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! >>>>>>>>>>> Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! >>>>>>>> Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship >>>>>> it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it >> and let them flee like the dogs they are! >> > >
