Yes George
George; I was at the NFPA 13D meeting before the 2007 Edition of NFPA 13 came out and I went with one purpose and that was to discuss the questions that I get all of the time as a technical service manager. What do I (designer or engineer) do when I have a sloped ceiling more than 8 in. in 12 in. and what do I do it the sloped ceiling that also has beams. Additionally what do I do (designer or engineer) do I do when have a bunch of decorative beams creating pockets. Is it good fire protection to put 16 residential sprinklers in a room with beams and only calculate two sprinklers? I was not allowed to speak because I was not a member of the committee so I packed my bags and went home. I know that there are a lot of opinion about everything but it was really difficult to watch some of the members who really did not seem to know a lot about sprinklers but were there to protect their turf. My opinion was that put they could put in the code that there that you have to treat it like light hazard or whatever (say calculate six sprinklers) but give the designers and engineers some direction. What they did was dumped it back on the sprinkler designer or his company or the engineer and mostly the AHJ. In my opinion the committee abdicated their responsibility. There are also some other areas that need attention. The voted to allow dry and Preaction systems in single family homes. I answer questions all of the time about Preaction systems from sprinkler contractors that do more kinds of sprinkler systems than residential. Many residential sprinkler contractors do not know anything about Preaction nor have they ever done a Preaction system. Some of the people seemed to think that you could use the normal detectors in a home spaced any way you wanted to or that you would need a releasing panel. The reason was one of the members had a client that had ten million dollars worth of art and was concerned about accidental discharge. In my opinion if you have ten millions dollars worth of art you do not need a 13D sprinkler system. Another issue was not addressed and that is there is no limitation on the size of a single family home. In my opinion a 44,000 square foot home does not need a 13D system. Another question is why do we not require and alarm on a 13D sprinkler system. The answer was the cost. That is BS since an electric bell is not expensive and yet they pass dry and Preaction. Overall, I was embarrassed and somewhat ticked off at the rampant attempts of certain parties to get the code changed to meet a product they either made or wanted to make. But that may be had it has always been. All of this may be a moot point when you see the flows and pressures that are going to be required to pass the new UL testing requirements for residential sprinklers. The insanity continues! The above is my personal opinion and is not way intended to be the opinion of my company. Sorry that I got carried away but that is the way I feel. Mike Brown -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 1:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Dry HSW under open framed 2x's Mike- Were you at James' seminar at last AFSA where he had the sloped nightmare residential scenarios in which heads in the hall opened before the otherwise obvious heads that would open first? With the thermal movie? My point is this- James was completely surprised at which heads opened under beamed sloped ceilings. He has a lot more testing experience than I'll ever have, even if I quit and went to work for FM or UL tomorrow. BUT- when deciding how to protect these buggers, we're to consult with and seek direction from - the AHJ. Who likely has never seen a burn, probably has never seen a burn video, let alone understand heat flow across beams or along slopes, etc. if James was wrong, how do we think the AHJ is going to be right? Law of averages, at least its either right or wrong and 50% is better than what we'd otherwise get? Mike, I AGREE WITH YOU that asking the local AHJ, who in my area may not know what a flow switch looks like, is silly if you want an informed answer. But isn't that what the Code directs us to do? Scary, isn't it? Good thing we don't use spkrs as often as car brakes, there's be more fire deaths. Glc -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Brown (TECH- GVL) Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 10:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Dry HSW under open framed 2x's There are two issues with a sprinkler. Those are sensitivity and distribution. The sidewall sprinklers must be tested to insure that they provide the appropriate sensitivity and distribution in distribution tests (RDD & ADD) as well as sensitivity tests and fire tests. I would not think that having a fire official just deciding one was better than the other is a really good idea. That smacks of the fire inspector saying he wants something done just because "he wants it that way". Mike Brown -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:20 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Dry HSW under open framed 2x's There seems to be a consensus among the inspector's I know that the sidewall is better than a pendent in many cases because of the spray pattern. Would there be a significant difference in the time it takes to fuse the two different types of heads? Thank you, Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Brown (TECH- GVL) Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 7:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Dry HSW under open framed 2x's Check The International Building Code which requires sprinklers protecting some decks and in that section the IBC allows deviations from NFPA 13 or the sprinkler listing. Maybe some bleed over into exterior canopies. Mike Brown -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 5:44 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Dry HSW under open framed 2x's I'm noticing a lot of small exterior canopies being protected with dry horizontal sidewall sprinklers even though it is open framing (usually 2X6's or 2X10's at 24" o/c) without any type of material fastened to the underside of this framing - which is all good and well since it mostly complies with NFPA #13 '07 ed section 8.4.2 except that it's not 'SMOOTH.' So I guess that's my question, they aren't smooth so how are people getting away with this? Smooth being defined as sructural members being spaced more than 7'-6" o/c. per A3.7.2. The only thing I can come up with is A8.15.7 where you can install a *pendant* at a 45 degree angle to protect small unheated areas so if it's okay for a pendant why not a HSW? (I'm sure it has to do with the intracacies of unfamiliar testing and listing requirements of a pendant over a hsw???) Any thoughts? Thx, -B- Below are the sections talked about: NFPA #13 2007 ED. 8.4.2 Sidewall Spray Sprinklers. Sidewall sprinklers shall only be installed as follows: (1) Light hazard occupancies with smooth, horizontal or sloped, flat ceilings (2) Ordinary hazard occupancies with smooth, flat ceilings where specifically listed for such use (3) To protect areas below overhead doors A.8.15.7 Small loading docks, covered platforms, ducts, or similar small unheated areas can be protected by dry-pendent sprinklers extending through the wall from wet sprinkler piping in an adjacent heated area. Where protecting covered platforms, loading docks, and similar areas, a dry pendent sprinkler should extend down at a 45 degree angle. The width of the area to be protected should not exceed 7½ ft (2.3 m). Sprinklers should be spaced not over 12 ft (3.7 m) apart. (See Figure A.8.15.7.) A.3.7.2 (3) Smooth Ceiling Construction. The term smooth ceiling construction as used in this standard includes the following: (a) Flat slab, pan-type reinforced concrete (b) Continuous smooth bays formed by wood, concrete, or steel beams spaced more than 7½ ft (2.3 m) on centers - beams supported by columns, girders, or trusses (c) Smooth roof or floor decks supported directly on girders or trusses spaced more than 7½ ft (2.3 m) on center (d) Smooth monolithic ceilings of at least ¾ in. (19 mm) of plaster on metal lath or a combination of materials of equivalent fire-resistive rating attached to the underside of wood joists, wood trusses, and bar joists (e) Open-web-type steel beams, regardless of spacing (f) Smooth shell-type roofs, such as folded plates, hyperbolic paraboloids, saddles, domes, and long barrel shells (g) Suspended ceilings of combustible or noncombustible construction (h) Smooth monolithic ceilings with fire resistance less than that specified under item (d) and attached to the underside of wood joists, wood trusses, and bar joists --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! 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