Ray, We have the expertise. We can co-opt them. You're there. Partner with your relative. We can be like alarm guys with smarts and parts. They don't seem to have any heartburn having the electricians put in conduit, boxes and wires to their designs. They make their money doing supplying the parts, the designs, the hook-ups and the commissioning. We can at least keep the tasty part of the carcass and leave the dirty work to the carrion.
On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Ray Vance <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > OK... Here I go jumping in with BOTH feet into the murky depths of this > ever-deepening flood of sprinkie / stuff-flows-down-hill debate... > > My brother is a State-Certified Master Plumber here in Florida and has > more than 27 years in the plumbing industry. > For the last two years his residential contractors have been asking him > if he can do the sprinklers, as well as the plumbing. > > Fortunately he sought counsel first regarding the fire protection side > and spent a little time with me and my 25 years of sprinkie experience > to determine what he needed to do to "do it right". > Florida is a little more stringent in their licensing requirements than > most states and he can't just add this sprinkie work to his line of > stuff-flows-down-hill services. > He is, however, going to obtain his additional licensing to install > residential sprinkler systems in Florida and will most likely have it > sometime this year. > > I also have a good friend who is a freelance sprinkler designer/layout > tech and he has more than a dozen single-family and small-format > residential projects he is involved in, in four different states. > To make a huge point, some of them will be installed by the plumbing > contractors, as they do the rest of the building, once the actual design > documents are completed and permits are issued. > > No matter what we (the sprinkler industry) do it is inevitable the > plumbing community is going to go after a large portion of the > residential market once the requirements become mandatory and, in my > opinion, they will succeed at a level far greater than most of us think. > It is also my opinion, and I agree with those of you who have pointed > this out, that the available workforce of designers and installers will > be severely lacking to do all the work that is coming. > > Truth be told, we have a severe shortage of qualified personnel right > now in the fire sprinkler community to do the work that is available. We > continually provide training opportunities for our team members and > pretty much spare no expense to get a comfort level that our personnel > are as well trained as any in the industry. You MUST continue to train > your people and you must do what ever you can to retain those you have > trained, especially the good ones. > > As far as my limited knowledge goes, Steve is on the money regarding the > statement relating to home-builders "that they can't consistently get > good pricing or even timely responses to requests for proposals." He is > also correct that this doesn't occur everywhere, but it is the norm > instead of the exception. > > One of the statements my brother made to me was that his builders "can't > get anyone to call them back." I am currently working with him to to > move more of his clients' requests our way until he has his licenses in > place. > > We (Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc.) have done and continue to do > a tremendous amount of residential work here in Florida with Pulte, > Centex, Toll, DR Horton, etc and we service them religiously, both in > pricing and in our design and installation services to them. The best > way to lose a client is to not service your client. > > That being said, we need to prepare for the onslaught that is coming in > the residential market, as well as be prepared to bid against and > justify our pricing structures next to the plumbing industry. > We can't stop them, we can only hope to contain them ;-) > > Ray Vance > Chief Enginerering Tech. > Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. > www.waynefire.com > (407) 877-5563 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 11:29 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > I am aware of at least two Western states -I'm sure there are MANY > others nationwide - where homebuilders who are dealing with partial or > blanket sprinkler ordinances are complaining to local and state AHJ's > that they can't get sprinkler contractors to respond to requests for > proposals on 13D and small-format 13R projects. I have seen and read > proposals for 2500-3000 sq. ft. single-family sprinkler systems that > were $5/sq. ft. (and higher) for the building system only. Like most > everything else in the built environment, this isn't ultimately about > training or human resources or operational programming, it's about cost. > And the truth of the matter is, as George says, we have boogered up more > than our share of projects as an industry because of bad practices, > inadequate training, continuing ed', etc., etc. > > But there's also an absolute truth about homebuilders that our industry > is going to have to address at the levels of marketing and diplomacy. I > have had business or correspondence with numerous regional offices of > the "Big 10" homebuilders - Centex, Pulte, Toll, DR Horton, etc. > Universally, there is a preference for expanding existing contracts with > their plumbers in lieu of adding another sub to the team. Why? > Two-fold; first is that they have a comfort zone with the big plumbers. > Second (and the part we have to address) is as noted above, that they > can't consistently get good pricing or even timely responses to requests > for proposals. Of course this is not everywhere, every day but it has > happened often enough to further ingrain the institutionalized > resistance that the homebuilders have against sprinklers and in too many > cases sprinkler contractors. Don't take my word for it Greg - the > market will speak (as it has been speaking already, in some areas) for > itself, and will do so without consideration for whether our hat says, > "Sprinkie" or "Stuff Flows Downhill". > > Tim - I appreciate your acknowledgment. Most people who know me would > agree that I'm generally very kind and understanding ... LMAO :o) > > Steve Leyton > Protection Design & Consulting > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George > Church > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:00 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > Greg, there are enough terrible jobs being done by our own industry that > we should refrain from throwing rocks at mechanicals/plumbers. > > I'm sure, like me, you try very hard to toe the line in your sphere of > control, but alas, there are plenty of non-compliant jobs being > installed by sprinkies that are either ignorant or relying on "but > that's what was specified" if not out-and-out greed. > > Seriously, how many 30' tall spec/flex buildings are protected to OH2 by > sprinkler guys? > > I'm not saying plumbers are the answer, or that they do better or worse > than sprinkler contractors. The reality is we've abandoned the market > segment by never showing up in force. > > glc > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > McGahan > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:46 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > Ok, so their pond has better candidates for designers than our pond > which is the USA? No, they will have unqualified people designing and > you are still going to have AHJ's that do not know the code letting them > get away with inadequate work. > > I am sorry but I do not know the answer but bringing in another trade > will get more work done, but not done better. > > Thank you, > Greg McGahan > > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC > 1160 McKenzie Road > Cantonment, FL 32533 > 850-937-1850 > Fax: 850-937-1852 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill > Minkel > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:25 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > I think the mechanical contractors are fishing in a way bigger pond > than the sprinkler contractors are. > > > Bill Minkel, Designer > Western States Fire Protection, Dallas > NFPA Member #2578666 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg > McGahan > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:58 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > OK, so the plumbers are going to "miraculously" do what the sprinkler > industry can't and immediately discover qualified designers behind the > rocks OR they are going to be able to train them effectively when we can > not? > > I am crying foul here - I don't care what code you are using D, R or > full 13, the issue is the same. I know we have spent money and time > trying to train and I am sure you more experienced guys have spent > exponentially more than us "young" guys. The problem is deeper - MANY > Americans do not want to work in ANY field and they definitely REFUSE to > take responsibility for their own lives and careers. > > Bring me a person of character and integrity and I can train them and > they will work if they have basic natural ability. I have seen many, > dozens of people with the natural ability fail repeatedly due to > character and integrity issues. > > I am sure the plumbers will take and perform the work; but I am even > more certain that they will have the same problems we already do to a > much larger degree and with less accountability. > > Thank you, > Greg McGahan > > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC > 1160 McKenzie Road > Cantonment, FL 32533 > 850-937-1850 > Fax: 850-937-1852 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Vining > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:58 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > Not quite. The NEC has the requirements for wiring of fire alarm > systems, but NFPA 72 (laughingly called the National Fire Alarm Code) > stands on its own. > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Timothy W Goins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Big difference, NFPA 72 is part of the electrical code, or it was the > > last time I checked. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John > Drucker > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:43 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > > > > > > > No different then Electrical Contractors that install Line Voltage > > Interconnected Smoke/Carbon Monoxide Alarms in Homes versus Alarm > > contractors that install Low Voltage Fire Alarm Systems. > > > > Bottom line its about cost. The plumbing contractor who installs > sprinklers > > as an extension of the plumbing system is no different then the > electrical > > contractor who installs smoke alarms as an extension of the > > electrical system. > > > > As for the NFPA, do they really "represent" any particular trade or > merely > > fire safety interests as a whole ? > > > > John Drucker > > Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) New Jersey > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:13 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > > > Booyah! Well put, oh great poobah of sprinkie-stuff. This is the > dirty > > little secret (or 600-lb. gorilla in the living room, depending on > your > > perspective) that I was alluding to in my rant a few weeks back about > > > large plumbing contractors moving into residential sprinklers. > Unless > > we (WE, the fire sprinkler community, inclusive) seriously ramp up > our > human > > and training resources for designers and installers, it will be > impossible > > to deal with the flood of proposal requests that are > > inevitable. This has been recognized and in some cases is already > > being acted upon by certain plumbing firms on a regional basis. > > > > Back to Timothy's question (aren't you glad you opened THIS can of > worms > > Tim-bo?); presuming it was a Uponor system you saw advertised, keep > in > > mind that they're market-making right now. And the NFPA Journal is > one > > of several publications in which they're advertising, along with > Rehau > who > > manufactures the only other PEX product approved for 13D systems at > the > > moment. If you don't want to see fire protection ads directed at > plumbers, > > then you'll also definitely want to avoid PM Engineer and Contractor > > > magazine too. > > > > Steve Leyton > > Protection Design & Consulting > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve > Muncy > > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 3:01 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > > > For multi-systems, there are currently several states that REQUIRE > > that a licensed plumber install the system because they are > considered > > an extension of the domestic water supply. Fire sprinkler > contractors > > are PROHIBITED from installing such systems, unless of course they > > have a plumbing license -- but the system is still being installed > > under the plumbing license. And when those systems are inspected, > > they will be inspected by Plumbing officials - not the fire marshal. > > > > Multi-purpose systems have been been recognized as acceptable in > > NFPA-13D for a long time but it was not until fairly recently that > use > > use accelerated. New changes being incorporated into the > > International Plumbing Code offer a simplified design for multi- > > purpose systems that does not require hydraulic calcs but is based on > > > distance and water pressure. My understanding is that the NFPA-13D > > committee has accepted the language proposed in the IPC proposal. By > > > the way, it was the International Association of Fire Chiefs who > > recommended the code change to add the simplified procedure to the > IPC. > > > > Bottom line is that you are going to see a lot more of these systems > > > in the future. It is likely that most "lower-end" homes will adopt > > the multi-purpose approach and larger, more expensive homes will have > > > a standalone system. > > > > When (not IF) the International Residential Code moves the > > requirements for sprinklers in single-family dwellings from the > > appendix to the body of the code, thus making it required, the number > > > of residential systems will EXPLODE. Sure, there will be battles on > > the local level to remove that requirement, but it is more difficult > > to remove a provision from the code on a local level. > > > > Think about this - based on the number of new homes built in 2007, > > each and every fire sprinkler contractor in the country would have to > > > install 375 single-family fire sprinkler systems. That is how big > > this market will eventually be, and most fire sprinkler contractors > > don't do many single-family systems when there are plenty of more > > lucrative commercial jobs to dedicate the limited number of employees > > > to. > > > > If plumbers are going to do this work.... and they will.... let's > just > > hope that they feel the need to acquire some TRAINING on the subject > > > before they jump head-first into the fire protection business. > > > > > > > > > > Steve Muncy, CAE Fire Sprinklers Save Lives! > > American Fire Sprinkler Assn. > > Dallas, TX > > > > > > > > On Mar 24, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Timothy W Goins wrote: > > > Why would the NFPA journal, MAR/APR 2008 edition, use an advertiser > > > > for > residential piping systems that ONLY recommends plumbers to > > install > their > product? I know the answer is money, but I thought > > > they were > looking > > > out for > > > our industry and it's standards, both written and installed. > > > > > > Isn't this like having an architect layout "design" fire sprinkler > > > > systems? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > -- > Ed Vining > 4819 John Muir Rd > Martinez CA 94553 > 925-228-879 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
