I'm trying to let this rest, I really am. But your question is a ball that definitely needs to be tossed back into the air for a few more hits.
"Do you guys REALLY believe that ANYBODY is going to put in the same effort the sprinkler guys do to get it right in the end when they are handed plug and play drawings from a manufacturer?" Hmmm. Let me paraphrase, "Do you REALLY believe that coming up through the plumbing trade somehow disqualifies a person from caring about the quality of their installed work, whether they are an installer, designer or business owner? Conversely, do you think that being a sprinkler industry person has somehow bestowed upon us a special component to our personality that makes us more concerned about such things?" Maybe this discussion is long overdue, or maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but forgive me in advance if I burst a few bubbles. Generally, the quality of work in the residential sprinkler trades that I have observed in large-scale 13R and 13D systems is middlin' to poor. Sometimes horrible and occasionally criminally negligent, or so it should be. I have seen so many concealed sprinklers installed with air gaps between the ceiling and the covers that I stopped counting. I've seen piping held down with Romex. I've seen CPVC with hangers averaging every 25 lineal feet. I've seen 3,000 SF 13D systems with as many as 35 added (uncalculated) CPVC elbows. I've seen systems in neighborhoods with 40 PSI of static pressure in the street, up 20' in elevation from the main, fed by 3/4" meters with all 3/4" pipe (including the 85 ft. service pipe to the house!). I've seen "trained" installers arbitrarily move sprinklers and delete sprinklers from our approved plans because "they're trained to never cut through the joists" (this off of plans that include penetration details). I've resorted to using my Spanish skills to communicate with raw untrained laborers more times than I care to remember. I've seen homebuilders take bids from sprinkies that were HALF of the next lowest bid over and over and over again. Because in the end that's all they care about. Greg, there are as many shysters in the sprinkler industry as there are in the plumbing trades. In fact, my theory is that there are more, because you can arguably get away with more crap on our side due to a generally mediocre reinforcement mechanism on the part of owner rep's, AHJ's, consultants, etc. due to a general and collective lack of expertise and them not knowing what they're looking at much of the time. You seem to be stuck on the notion that just because we're all drawing from the same prospective talent pool (i.e. drafters and designer candidates) that we are somehow inherently more qualified to train those designers. But you're forgetting that $150 million sprinkler companies are extremely rare; $150 million a year is just the cost of admission to the large scale residential mechanical and plumbing trades in some regions. I've asked this question a dozen times in this forum and nobody's answered it yet: What makes us think that a $150 million company doesn't have the business smarts and the financial resources to recruit, hire and train PROFESSIONAL technicians? THEY have a huge jump on US in that regard. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 2:30 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers WHO CARES if a plumber or a sprinkler contractor installs the systems if at least they are saving lives right????? That is NOT the question.. Do you guys REALLY believe that ANYBODY is going to put in the same effort the sprinkler guys do to get it right in the end when they are handed plug and play drawings from a manufacturer? What about the added ceiling fan, soffits, closets and changed floor plans due to the homeowner's whims? Do you really believe the guys who go to a quick trip instant certification class are going to catch these problems and take the time to ask the question sand install it correctly? Being transparent, we have a hard time keeping the 10 year guys on their toes every day with the ever changing code issues. How is anyone new, whether his title is plumber or sprinklerman going to keep up with this stuff? I DO NOT CARE IF THE PLUMBERS COME. Don't you think if it is that easy and inexperienced people can dominate the market then we can find our own inexperienced people, hire them, let the manufacturer design the systems and compete with the plumbers!!! What I am VERY,VERY concerned about is the quality of the end product. I wonder how many 13D homes a GREAT Nicet IV can produce a day and still ensure code correctness due to the above mentioned field changes and the difficulty in getting accurate water flow information, and the different quirks from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and on and on and on? Last post on this subject from me, Have a great evening. Thank you, Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ray Vance Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 2:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers OK... Here I go jumping in with BOTH feet into the murky depths of this ever-deepening flood of sprinkie / stuff-flows-down-hill debate... My brother is a State-Certified Master Plumber here in Florida and has more than 27 years in the plumbing industry. For the last two years his residential contractors have been asking him if he can do the sprinklers, as well as the plumbing. Fortunately he sought counsel first regarding the fire protection side and spent a little time with me and my 25 years of sprinkie experience to determine what he needed to do to "do it right". Florida is a little more stringent in their licensing requirements than most states and he can't just add this sprinkie work to his line of stuff-flows-down-hill services. He is, however, going to obtain his additional licensing to install residential sprinkler systems in Florida and will most likely have it sometime this year. I also have a good friend who is a freelance sprinkler designer/layout tech and he has more than a dozen single-family and small-format residential projects he is involved in, in four different states. To make a huge point, some of them will be installed by the plumbing contractors, as they do the rest of the building, once the actual design documents are completed and permits are issued. No matter what we (the sprinkler industry) do it is inevitable the plumbing community is going to go after a large portion of the residential market once the requirements become mandatory and, in my opinion, they will succeed at a level far greater than most of us think. It is also my opinion, and I agree with those of you who have pointed this out, that the available workforce of designers and installers will be severely lacking to do all the work that is coming. Truth be told, we have a severe shortage of qualified personnel right now in the fire sprinkler community to do the work that is available. We continually provide training opportunities for our team members and pretty much spare no expense to get a comfort level that our personnel are as well trained as any in the industry. You MUST continue to train your people and you must do what ever you can to retain those you have trained, especially the good ones. As far as my limited knowledge goes, Steve is on the money regarding the statement relating to home-builders "that they can't consistently get good pricing or even timely responses to requests for proposals." He is also correct that this doesn't occur everywhere, but it is the norm instead of the exception. One of the statements my brother made to me was that his builders "can't get anyone to call them back." I am currently working with him to to move more of his clients' requests our way until he has his licenses in place. We (Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc.) have done and continue to do a tremendous amount of residential work here in Florida with Pulte, Centex, Toll, DR Horton, etc and we service them religiously, both in pricing and in our design and installation services to them. The best way to lose a client is to not service your client. That being said, we need to prepare for the onslaught that is coming in the residential market, as well as be prepared to bid against and justify our pricing structures next to the plumbing industry. We can't stop them, we can only hope to contain them ;-) Ray Vance Chief Enginerering Tech. Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. www.waynefire.com (407) 877-5563 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 11:29 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers I am aware of at least two Western states -I'm sure there are MANY others nationwide - where homebuilders who are dealing with partial or blanket sprinkler ordinances are complaining to local and state AHJ's that they can't get sprinkler contractors to respond to requests for proposals on 13D and small-format 13R projects. I have seen and read proposals for 2500-3000 sq. ft. single-family sprinkler systems that were $5/sq. ft. (and higher) for the building system only. Like most everything else in the built environment, this isn't ultimately about training or human resources or operational programming, it's about cost. And the truth of the matter is, as George says, we have boogered up more than our share of projects as an industry because of bad practices, inadequate training, continuing ed', etc., etc. But there's also an absolute truth about homebuilders that our industry is going to have to address at the levels of marketing and diplomacy. I have had business or correspondence with numerous regional offices of the "Big 10" homebuilders - Centex, Pulte, Toll, DR Horton, etc. Universally, there is a preference for expanding existing contracts with their plumbers in lieu of adding another sub to the team. Why? Two-fold; first is that they have a comfort zone with the big plumbers. Second (and the part we have to address) is as noted above, that they can't consistently get good pricing or even timely responses to requests for proposals. Of course this is not everywhere, every day but it has happened often enough to further ingrain the institutionalized resistance that the homebuilders have against sprinklers and in too many cases sprinkler contractors. Don't take my word for it Greg - the market will speak (as it has been speaking already, in some areas) for itself, and will do so without consideration for whether our hat says, "Sprinkie" or "Stuff Flows Downhill". Tim - I appreciate your acknowledgment. Most people who know me would agree that I'm generally very kind and understanding ... LMAO :o) Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:00 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers Greg, there are enough terrible jobs being done by our own industry that we should refrain from throwing rocks at mechanicals/plumbers. I'm sure, like me, you try very hard to toe the line in your sphere of control, but alas, there are plenty of non-compliant jobs being installed by sprinkies that are either ignorant or relying on "but that's what was specified" if not out-and-out greed. Seriously, how many 30' tall spec/flex buildings are protected to OH2 by sprinkler guys? I'm not saying plumbers are the answer, or that they do better or worse than sprinkler contractors. The reality is we've abandoned the market segment by never showing up in force. glc -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:46 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers Ok, so their pond has better candidates for designers than our pond which is the USA? No, they will have unqualified people designing and you are still going to have AHJ's that do not know the code letting them get away with inadequate work. I am sorry but I do not know the answer but bringing in another trade will get more work done, but not done better. Thank you, Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers I think the mechanical contractors are fishing in a way bigger pond than the sprinkler contractors are. Bill Minkel, Designer Western States Fire Protection, Dallas NFPA Member #2578666 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers OK, so the plumbers are going to "miraculously" do what the sprinkler industry can't and immediately discover qualified designers behind the rocks OR they are going to be able to train them effectively when we can not? I am crying foul here - I don't care what code you are using D, R or full 13, the issue is the same. I know we have spent money and time trying to train and I am sure you more experienced guys have spent exponentially more than us "young" guys. The problem is deeper - MANY Americans do not want to work in ANY field and they definitely REFUSE to take responsibility for their own lives and careers. Bring me a person of character and integrity and I can train them and they will work if they have basic natural ability. I have seen many, dozens of people with the natural ability fail repeatedly due to character and integrity issues. I am sure the plumbers will take and perform the work; but I am even more certain that they will have the same problems we already do to a much larger degree and with less accountability. Thank you, Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Vining Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers Not quite. The NEC has the requirements for wiring of fire alarm systems, but NFPA 72 (laughingly called the National Fire Alarm Code) stands on its own. On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Timothy W Goins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Big difference, NFPA 72 is part of the electrical code, or it was the > last time I checked. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:43 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > > > No different then Electrical Contractors that install Line Voltage > Interconnected Smoke/Carbon Monoxide Alarms in Homes versus Alarm > contractors that install Low Voltage Fire Alarm Systems. > > Bottom line its about cost. The plumbing contractor who installs sprinklers > as an extension of the plumbing system is no different then the electrical > contractor who installs smoke alarms as an extension of the > electrical system. > > As for the NFPA, do they really "represent" any particular trade or merely > fire safety interests as a whole ? > > John Drucker > Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) New Jersey > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:13 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > Booyah! Well put, oh great poobah of sprinkie-stuff. This is the dirty > little secret (or 600-lb. gorilla in the living room, depending on your > perspective) that I was alluding to in my rant a few weeks back about > large plumbing contractors moving into residential sprinklers. Unless > we (WE, the fire sprinkler community, inclusive) seriously ramp up our human > and training resources for designers and installers, it will be impossible > to deal with the flood of proposal requests that are > inevitable. This has been recognized and in some cases is already > being acted upon by certain plumbing firms on a regional basis. > > Back to Timothy's question (aren't you glad you opened THIS can of worms > Tim-bo?); presuming it was a Uponor system you saw advertised, keep in > mind that they're market-making right now. And the NFPA Journal is one > of several publications in which they're advertising, along with Rehau who > manufactures the only other PEX product approved for 13D systems at the > moment. If you don't want to see fire protection ads directed at plumbers, > then you'll also definitely want to avoid PM Engineer and Contractor > magazine too. > > Steve Leyton > Protection Design & Consulting > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Muncy > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 3:01 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > For multi-systems, there are currently several states that REQUIRE > that a licensed plumber install the system because they are considered > an extension of the domestic water supply. Fire sprinkler contractors > are PROHIBITED from installing such systems, unless of course they > have a plumbing license -- but the system is still being installed > under the plumbing license. And when those systems are inspected, > they will be inspected by Plumbing officials - not the fire marshal. > > Multi-purpose systems have been been recognized as acceptable in > NFPA-13D for a long time but it was not until fairly recently that use > use accelerated. New changes being incorporated into the > International Plumbing Code offer a simplified design for multi- > purpose systems that does not require hydraulic calcs but is based on > distance and water pressure. My understanding is that the NFPA-13D > committee has accepted the language proposed in the IPC proposal. By > the way, it was the International Association of Fire Chiefs who > recommended the code change to add the simplified procedure to the IPC. > > Bottom line is that you are going to see a lot more of these systems > in the future. It is likely that most "lower-end" homes will adopt > the multi-purpose approach and larger, more expensive homes will have > a standalone system. > > When (not IF) the International Residential Code moves the > requirements for sprinklers in single-family dwellings from the > appendix to the body of the code, thus making it required, the number > of residential systems will EXPLODE. Sure, there will be battles on > the local level to remove that requirement, but it is more difficult > to remove a provision from the code on a local level. > > Think about this - based on the number of new homes built in 2007, > each and every fire sprinkler contractor in the country would have to > install 375 single-family fire sprinkler systems. That is how big > this market will eventually be, and most fire sprinkler contractors > don't do many single-family systems when there are plenty of more > lucrative commercial jobs to dedicate the limited number of employees > to. > > If plumbers are going to do this work.... and they will.... let's just > hope that they feel the need to acquire some TRAINING on the subject > before they jump head-first into the fire protection business. > > > > > Steve Muncy, CAE Fire Sprinklers Save Lives! > American Fire Sprinkler Assn. > Dallas, TX > > > > On Mar 24, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Timothy W Goins wrote: > > Why would the NFPA journal, MAR/APR 2008 edition, use an advertiser > > for > residential piping systems that ONLY recommends plumbers to > install > their > product? I know the answer is money, but I thought > they were looking > > out for > > our industry and it's standards, both written and installed. > > > > Isn't this like having an architect layout "design" fire sprinkler > > systems? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ed Vining 4819 John Muir Rd Martinez CA 94553 925-228-879 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
