Thanks Mike, I understand the concept, however what if a) the job is installed to plan & calcs b) the job is installed to revised plans & calcs. ? What I'm getting at is the need for the bucket test if the plans and calcs demonstrate compliance.
What I'm getting at is just how reliable are hydraulic calcs ? On the surface the bucket test implies that hydraulic calculations in of themselves are not to be relied on and that proof of hydraulic performance is neccesary. If that's the case how about 13R and 13 Systems ?. Its not a water supply "connection" issue since a main drain test is the accepted method to validate this. While the bucket test also performs this function, the need to measure performance in the area of operation serves no other purpose then to validate hydraulic design. If it's the installation, i.e. obstructions, pipe size, sprinkler heads we're concerned about we need to be flow testing beyond the area of operation. Lastly theres nothing in our adopted codes or standards that require a "bucket test". Frankly a contractor would well be within their right to appeal my decision to require such a test. Don't take that as I don't believe theres some validity to "bucket tests", I do, but theres nothing for me to hang my enforcement hat on and we all know how contractors insist on "show me in the code." Sincerely, John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) New Jersey Safe Buildings Save Lives ! -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Brown (TECH- GVL) Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:19 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? (TIA Needed) John You start with a set of approved plans with the hydraulic calculations and a permit. There would be various stages of inspection depending on the local fire marshal and the "Bucket" test would be before cover up of the pipe and fittings. If there have been changes made to the piping,they should show up on an as-built drawing (as-built drawings are difficult to get correct even with commercial systems). The bucket test would at least insure that the remote sprinklers flow the minimum water as per the hydraulic calculations. Michael L. Brown Manager of Technical Services The Reliable Automatic Sprinkler Company, Inc.' [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.reliablesprinkler.com (864) 843-5228 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 4:03 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? (TIA Needed) Mike, In addition to revised plans and hydraulic calculations where the job wasn't installed to the original plan ? John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) New Jersey -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Brown (TECH- GVL) Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 3:56 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? (TIA Needed) I agree with Thom in that, as we are getting closer to mandated fire sprinklers in single family homes, the potential for a large number of new contractors, plumbers, and assorted others (some of whom may well be trunk slammers) will be jumping on the bandwagon. As I remember when we were getting a licensing law in Georgia, we had to exempt single family homes in order to get any kind of law. In some states there is still no law at all. (New York State for example has no licensing law.) This influx of new sprinkler installers may not be well versed sprinkler installation. A "Put the Water in the Bucket" test might well be a good control measure to protect the potential home owner as well as protecting the image of our industry. I would think that a test like this might be included in the next edition of NFPA 13D. At least, when I see some of the questions that I get from some sprinkler contractors and a lot of engineers, a field test like this could give us some degree of quality control. That would be a good thing. Something to consider. Michael L. Brown, P.L.L. (Peon Low Life) Manager of Technical Services The Reliable Automatic Sprinkler Company, Inc.' [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.reliablesprinkler.com (864) 843-5228 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 1:39 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: What is a Bucket Test? (TIA Needed) This "TEST" was a conditional method when 13D was new. I have not seen a bucket test that failed, when required, in the last 15 years. AHJ's are more savvy, Contractors are more cautious, and know that the field guys will be adding ells. Some just add extra ells in the calc's and others don't use the full residual pressure as allowed in 13D. Maybe the bucket test would be ok if hydraulic calc's are not required, but is a waste of time and money for Qualified Designers and layout Tech's, Installers, and AHJ's. Thom McMahon Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 10:05 AM Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? (TIA Needed) > Perhaps it is time to incorporate a bucket test requirement and test > method into 13D prior to the widespread installation of these systems > based on an ICC code change. If failures are widespread I think this > is important enough for a TIA if there's any chance the ICC will > reference a current edition of 13D. The implications are huge if > large numbers of 13D systems are expected to fail after being > engineered and installed by qualified plumbers/sprinkler companies. > > Bill Brooks > > William N. Brooks, P.E. > Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. > 372 Wilett Drive > Severna Park, MD 21146 > 410-544-3620 Phone > 410-544-3032 FAX > 412-400-6528 Cell > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? > From: "Tom Duross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Mon, April 14, 2008 11:05 am > To: <[email protected]> > > Back in the late eighties and early nineties, virtually every D and R > system we did or designed got a bucket test. I still have my graduated > buckets and pendent tubes we used. There's a couple of towns here in > MA that still require them. I don't remember being waived on an R > multi-family system back when they were all following what the Cobb > Cty. Chief advised. I seem to remember every one of these systems were > being bucket tested. We never failed a single one but I know some did. > > Tom Duross > Go Red Sox > :) > > I personally don't design SFDs but have seen sprinkler plans for many > of them (and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night). The architectural, > structural, mechanical plans, etc. are generally very simple and > lacking the type of detail you'd expect on a commercial project. > Likewise, the sprinkler plans tend to be simple - mains & branchlines > drawn as nice strait lines with few or no offsets. Then you get to the > jobsite and, 'Hey, where'd that duct come from. Gotta 90 around it." > "Hey, who added the vaulted ceiling, gotta add a couple 90's to get > above it." > > I can think of 2 basic reasons a sprinkler system would fail a bucket > test. > 1) Out of necessity, the fitter installed more pipe & fittings than > the designer calced for. > 2) The underground supply isn't as hydraulically friendly as it's > supposed to be. Small diameter copper (especially the coiled type) is > notorious for being installed with seemingly minor kinks that restrict > water flow. > Pressure losses through meters can be significantly more than many > calcs allow for. > > This takes me back to a recent thread concerning code changes that > will require sprinkler installation in all new SFDs. Just like in Cobb > County, THERE WILL BE A LEARNING CURVE for the new installation > contractors (sprinkler, plumber, or whatever). Designers need to allow > for extra pipe & fitting. Installers need to think ahead & coordinate > so extra pipe & fittings are kept to a minimum. Underground services > have to be installed correctly. > > I personally think bucket tests on 13D installations are a good thing. > Nobody want to do it and nobody wants to fail it. Unfortunately, as in > Cobb County, it becomes part of the 'training' for designers & > installers. > And > when all SFDs require sprinklers, we're going to need a lot of that. > > Ed Kramer > Littleton, CO >> Mike, >> >> Now we are at the heart of the matter. If the bucket test results in >> a surprising number of failures, what is the explanation for this? Is >> it the way the standard is written, is the bucket test technically flawed? >> >> Seems this would be a great senior research project to figure this out. >> I don't understand a surprisingly high failure rate when system >> design is performed by competent FP firms. >> >> Bill Brooks >> >> William N. Brooks, P.E. >> >> It was surprising the number of systems that failed when the test was >> preformed. >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. 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