Mike, Excellent analysis of the main causes, particularly water analysis, of problems where problems exist. And that's for projects with an engineer/engineering firm with a qualified FPE on board. How many garden apartment projects are going to get that Cadillac treatment? I once got water test data that had the same velocity and residual pressure. Now I suppose that could happen (static/residual hydrant at a much higher level without consideration for adjustment might do it) but I wouldn't take it to Vegas. Except for something that jumps out and screams in your face that it's wrong what do you do? Odds are the water district won't let you do a test. Then there's the typical GC--"I don't care if I just signed your contract this morning, if you're not on site tomorrow you'll be the one holding up the job." Then we have the sprinkler contractor that may the world's greatest NICET tech ever but even if the poor guy isn't overworked and is knowledgeable about water analysis in depth (which he shouldn't need to be at all) his data is only as good as what's given him. Obviously we have problems but bucket tests iin select, "easy to do bucket test in" buildings isn't the answer.
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 6:15 AM, Mike Brown (TECH- GVL) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Actually, in several counties around Atlanta, the test was also required for > garden style apartments up to four stories. You would be surprised that, at > least in the beginning, a number of projects that had full blown hydraulic > calculations failed when the bucket test showed them to be incorrect. Many > times the main culprit was a water test supplied by the water company that > was faulty or not up to date. Which brings me to my point that I have made > over the years, the "design" of sprinkler systems really involves four major > decisions by the design engineer and the rest is mostly a layout of a system > within the rules of the codes. > > First Engineering Decision: What is the hazard and what densities are > required. The project must be classified as per the fire risk. What are you > protecting and how much water will it require to achieve the fire protection > objective. > > Second Engineering Decision: What is the water supply and has there been a > detailed analysis and testing of the water supply? Generally, engineers and > others rely on water tests provide by others and sometimes incorrect and out > of date. Often very little time is devoted by the engineer to insure that an > adequate water supply at the needed pressure is available. This does not > mean just throwing in a large fire pump just to be safe. > > Third Engineering Decision: Where is the remote area? It is easy to just > let the designer decide but the selection of the remote area can change the > hydraulics dramatically. > > Fourth Engineering Decision: Coordination and review of the plans. The shop > drawings and calculations may be checked and the coordination with the other > trades on the project. Often, the engineer just passes these functions to a > trainee or someone else within the engineering firm. In other cases the issue > is just ignored. > > Too often these decisions are not given the time and effort that they > deserve. > > > Michael L. Brown > Manager of Technical Services > The Reliable Automatic Sprinkler Company, Inc.' > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.reliablesprinkler.com > (864) 843-5228 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Church > Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:08 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? > > Bucket test, IMHO, was to "prove" the "shortcut" calcs allowed under 13D > worked. 13R calcs are done to the same level of care as #13 calcs, so no > bucket test was needed. > > In #13D done with shortcut calcs, makes sense and isn't a big deal- > especially when you consider the downside (fire death in sprinklered house). > > But flowing 20 heads in a 13 system? Be careful what you ask for is right. > > glc > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:39 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: What is a Bucket Test? > > Chris, > > This silly test tells you nothing that other tests don't already tell > you. It certainly doesn't tell you if your system will work or not > because it presumes that conditions at the moment of the bucket test > reflect the moment of the water availability test. Main drain tests > will tell you if pipe is collapsed or valves are shut. What needs to > be done (and I know this won't happen) is to get the water purveyors > to quit handing out old crap and calling it good today. Thanks for > setting me up for this mini-rant. > > Ron Greenman > ...at home > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
