I'd assume when the fitter's liability insurance or assets are depleted- if they're even sought in subrogation- then the liability reverts back to where it now resides- a well-insured CONTRACTING FIRM. So what was the point?
We need to make sure we assure quality when we institute QC programs. Handing out fitter licenses to everyone with a card or that's graduated from (or is enrolled in)an apprenticeship course, or who's been hanging pipe right or wrong for 5 years, doesn't insure quality. I think we see how well the QC by PEs producing contract documents that have fatal errors in them, despite established state licensing laws, is proof of the state's ability to perform QC. glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:47 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Residential systems in California I can understand both sides of the issue but would have to agree with Rod. If the contractor is licensed it gives a better point of accountability. When the installer is licensed and screws up a guy making $50000-$80000 a year is penalized. This leaves the old "well he did it so im cool" mentality in play. Where as if the contractor is licensed you now have 30 to 40 employees all making different salaries affected by the screw up.. So now everyones job is at stake if there is a bad screw up, so everyone looks out for everyone. Thus making the quality of the system better therefore providing better life safety for the rest of America. I have had to be a part of the licensing of the contractor for several years and the accountability makes people pay attention. A friend of mine works in an area where the fitter has to be licensed and he says they always have trouble finding people and keeping them, therefore causing business to suffer. Unions have there place most definately but licensing of the company is in my opinion more effective. Rod how is Jesse doing up there in Casper Wy? Jeremy S. Blocker Let us not look back in anger, nor forward in fear, but around in awareness. --James Thurber ________________________________ From: Rod DiBona <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:59:45 PM Subject: RE: Residential systems in California I know you are not specifically saying to be pro union but let me promise you that fitter licensing is the first step. Even if it ends there it usually has very negative consequences. The union WILL try and use it to their advantage. This is not hypothetical it has happened in many places. Let me copy a quote from my friend Micheal Winiecki who along with his father Frank and many others in 417's jurisdiction have lived it. Michael Winiecki, president of General Sprinkler Corp., Maplewood, Minn., states, "The long-term price we have paid since fitter licensing has been enacted is that our business growth and development has suffered." >From AFSA's white paper on the issue. "It is not sprinkler fitters that need to be licensed, it is the fire sprinkler contractor who is ultimately responsible for the quality of the installation. It is the fire sprinkler contractor who should be licensed to install fire sprinkler systems, and licensing of contractors must be based upon competency in order to be effective." Can you imagine the embarrassment to the industry if we finally win this battle only to have a shortage of "licensed" fitters to do the job? It is the contractor that needs to have qualified, competent oversight as they are the ones who are ultimately responsible. I understand that you are coming from a position of using the licensing to our advantage and ice the plumbers out but I don't believe that is the approach that will work. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Residential systems in California I'm not saying be pro-union. I'm saying pro-license. Plumbers have it to their advantage. A friend of mine was fined $ 2,000 a few years ago for installing a backflow on a sprinkler system! It required a lucensed plumber. Otherwise what steve said will come to pass: plumbers will control the residential market. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Rod DiBona" <[email protected]> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:54:59 To: <[email protected]> Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Well Forest I respect everybody's right to have their opinion and I have agreed with you many times on this forum but on this one my answer would not be no; but HELL NO. Don't have time to defend my opinion right now but will be glad to engage later. I don't know your age or history but there are many of us who have been there and done that and have no interest in going down that road. It is one of those things that from the "outside" seems like a good idea but in reality would be a disaster. The problem is that many people believe that this would be a fair and equitable process but the truth is that there is nothing fair or equitable about it. Sound like a conspirator? Take a look at what we call the "card Check". What do they call it? Employee Free Choice Act. That's real cute. The right to take away the employees free choice is more like it. Reminds me of the "stimulus" bill. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:33 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Residential systems in California And that is why the industry should join the unions in supporting sprinklerfitting licensing for installers. Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Steve Leyton" <[email protected]> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:42:10 To: <[email protected]> Subject: RE: Residential systems in California I'm only going to speak to a couple of the many valid points raised in your mail. Using a single large residential plumbing contractor as an example, most have large shops where they're already doing sub-assembly fabrication and prep of materials prior to dropping at project sites. Washer/dryer manifolds, service manifolds, traps, etc., etc. This is no different than making up resi-risers, drops, test connections, etc. Methodologically, they are already set up for this with little or no start-up costs. Second, WRT to design you're right, it's no different for plumbers vs. sprinkies in that they will have to find/train design techs. But again, if you have a community of experienced plumbing designers to draw from, who are already familiar with plan reading, piping systems, water supplies and - in many cases - hydraulic design practices, the learning curve is shorter and flatters. Third, and by far the most significant IMHO, they are already structuring their overhead costs on a much higher value of work basis. I have no idea what the numbers are for a typical 2,000 SF tract home, but let's say that Company X is already 1) setting the meter and installing the service pipe; 2) installing all hot and cold water piping and fixtures, including the water heater; 3) installing the gas meter and piping for homes so-equipped; 4) running the drains and soils piping and the sewer lateral. What's that worth - does anyone on this forum have a good idea? Let's say it's ... oh, I dunno, $17,500 at the low end and 22,500 at the high end - does that sound about right? Add to that the FAU and duct work if it's an all-trades mechanical contract. And they have the after-sale service department, documentation and programming all done and sitting there ready to go. So if they're already charging $15,000-30,000 for materials and services on production homes, what do you think the impact will be to their overhead to add residential fire sprinklers? Not nearly as high as it is for a mom & pop sprinkler shop, that's for sure. And as lucid as your observations are, you're not factoring that the homebuilding community is biased toward consolidated purchasing patterns. If they can one-stop-shop for everything wet, they'll give it a long hard look, believe me. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:07 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Here's where my friends Steve, George and Ryan and I disagree a bit. I'll rephrase - Never mind raising eyebrows, how is the PLUMBING industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary to serve this market? It's all manpower (FP/P labels aren't important). Are you telling us the plumbers all these years are sitting around with extra people? That doesn't make business sense. They have exactly the correct number of people they need to do the work they are doing now. Just like we do. If it's work increase for us it's work increase for them. "both conventional and MP systems - regardless of licensing or code or jurisdictional variables. BECAUSE IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. And who's to stop them?" Is the argument they are allowed to not follow the law? If no one can stop them why is there the inference we can be stopped. "Homebuilders will appreciate the one-stop shopping" So are you telling me they would appreciate if I expand into the siding market, roofing market and electrical market even if I have no knowledge of those fields? That would be a couple less subs. Or are you saying the homebuilders have reached their maximum capacity to deal with one more sub over the 20 plus they are already dealing with? "it's not rocket science." Yep I agree and if it ain't rocket science for plumbers are you saying it is for us? Seems to me it's wouldn't be rocket science for us either. Dave A.. Said "Check the annex, and look at the "Calculation Sheet". Like someone said, it's not rocket science." So a sprinkler contractor must do a plan and HW calc but a homeowner or plumber can use the annex? Now I know that's not what anyone actually said but that's what I took from the total comments. I believe what one should take from this is the annex is for us too. Now the biggest obstacle I see to anyone doing annex calc's are the AHJ's present company excluded. I agree economics will be the answer. I have full faith in the market to solve who is going to do this work. But first we will need to ensure through the gov't those practicing in a life safety field are qualified. Only then will economics be the driver. We are in the life safety field and plumbers are in the same field. We just have specialized in different areas. We fire suppression, they potable water and sanitary waste. If I get 350 houses to do next year I guarantee you I can find 6-7 people to do this work even if we were working like we were a few years ago. Budgeting a man-week per house. The labor market grows daily.. Don't tell me the burger flippers and cashiers won't move for a buck an hour more. The labor market bottomed out at just under 5% unemployment. 10,000 fitters or whatever we call them wouldn't make a dent in the unemployment rate. Don't tell me there aren't many fully capable of glueing plastic together. IMHO putting in the sprinkler system in a house is easier than the plumbing system so saying the plumbers are cheaper is fine but a they are still over paid for the fire sprinkler portion. I'm assuming good PM and designer in shop. I see day one a few fitters going out on there own to specialize in this work. I see a few smaller sprinkler companies dropping the steel work. I see large sprinkler companies developing residential shops. I see union shops using the lower wages of residential fitters already in the contracts and I see the non-union shops hiring lower paid counter parts to their existing fitters that just do residential. We don't have to pay for the learning curve the plumbers will have. Our changes are minor compared to the plumbers. They need to find PM's and designers that can spell fire sprinkler (not unlike the PE profession), they will need to secure suppliers, they will need to learn basic hydraulics (HW or annex), they will need to learn 13D. We already have this infrastructure in place just needs to grow a bit not start from scratch. They may catch us and pass us, time will tell. But day one they aren't prep'ping any more than we are. On day one I need to hang a hiring shingle for one PM that I can teach to spell fire sprinkler, 6 laborers and make 2 phone calls to get a few heads, pipe and appurtenances. I am ready. And if I get 700 I leave the shingle up for a second day is the only difference. I hope to know all you years from now to see how this plays out. But I guess that's what Facebook is for. I don't know for sure how this will turn out but I will not concede to the plumbers before the skirmish starts in earnest. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 10:09 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Residential systems in California Never mind raising eyebrows, how is our industry going to find the thousands of design tech's and literally dozens of thousands of installers necessary to serve this market? Plumbing contractors are going to start doing this work- both conventional and MP systems - regardless of licensing or code or jurisdictional variables. BECAUSE IT MAKES GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. And who's to stop them? Homebuilders will appreciate the one-stop shopping and many plumbing contractors already have design departments. I've said this dozens of times already in this forum but I'll say it again - it's not rocket science. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 7:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Residential systems in California For the sprinkler contractors who don't hold a plumbing license: if there is no BFP, then the entire sprinkler system is potable. That's work you no longer have access to. Does that raise any eyebrows? Ed Kramer Littleton, CO > "To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the > committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the > hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ..." > > Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the > inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush? _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3869 (20090219)__________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3873 (20090220)__________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
