Let's hope Steve doesn't see Ed McMahon anytime soon! Mike Brown Project Designer Sunland Fire Protection, Inc. 1218 Elon Place High Point, NC 27263 [email protected] Business: 336-886-7027 Ext. #140 Fax: 336-886-7024
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 12:41 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: Sprinkler under first accessible landing I should have known. Your kudos are on the way. Watch for Ed McMahon in a white van carrying large, novelty kudos. On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 9:11 PM, steve <[email protected]> wrote: > That was me; send all kudos to my office address please. Collections lagging > badly. > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 19:39:50 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Sprinkler under first accessible landing > > Craig, > > I thought it was you making fun of the architect by pointing out his > misinterpretation was as silly as defining accessibility in this case > as being the ADA one. I know someone mentioned it. I apologize for the > attribution but it was praise for the satirical observation. So > whoever it was: Kudos. > > On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 6:52 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> I didn't mention anything related to ADA and it's referencve to >> "accessibility". A stair landing has nothing to do with ADA, that would be >> totally stupid. >> >> Hans, sorry but if the PE read the handbook which gives an explanation he >> would have understood the reason for the head under the FIRST landing, not >> just ANY landing that you can access. The two common places where storage >> occurs are under the FIRST landing on ground level and on the extra width >> that isn't used at the TOP of the stairs. Some of this stuff is just too >> simple but some who live to revel in the excellance of their superior >> education like to make it more difficult. So my Star detraction still >> stands. Sorry, just can't excuse blantant ignorance. >> >> >> Craig Prahl >> CH2MHILL/SPB >> 864-599-4102 >>________________________________________ >> From: [email protected] >> [[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman >> [[email protected]] >> Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 12:28 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Sprinkler under first accessible landing >> >> Problem is that the term is not defined per 13 and so do you use >> Webster, IBC or ADA? Although a non-building person would probably >> default to a Websteristic definition and just ask, "Can you get into >> and use the space for something?" but a building guy will more likely >> fall into accessible/non-accessible concealed space (which isn't even >> in 13 in those words), or accessible through an access panel, or, per >> Craig's comment/joke, do you use ADA and build a ramp to above the >> ATC. Considering some of the costly insanity associated with ADA >> interpretation there may be more truth to what Craig said than he was >> thinking when he said it. Take Texas with horn/strobes in closets in >> case a deaf person is in the closet. What if it's a blind and deaf >> person? Or in my own case. My classrooms are in the semi basement >> (side of hill, full-flight of stairs to floor above for one egress and >> half-flight up on the downslope side. There's also a non-compliant >> ramp that's too steep for ADA. I also have two sinks with soap and >> towel dispensers. One day maintenance shows up and announces that per >> ADA they have to lower all the dispensers to some ADA height standard >> for wheelchair accessibility. Now the sinks stay the same but the >> towels and soap dispensers are essentially on the floor. Although I >> could potentially have a wheelchair bound student I never have (or >> maybe I have but he died on the ramp on his first day when he lost >> control of his chair), but I have had numerous re-trains that have >> hurt their backs and have trouble or even pain bending over. These >> devices WERE non-accessible to them. Were comes into the equation >> since I have tools and I'm not afraid to use them. >> >> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Frans Stoop <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Craig, >>> >>> Don't be to greedy with the gold stars to that poor engineer or one day you >>> might have to hand over one of your own. >>> The engineer did not take any license, he only quoted the most recent >>> edition of NFPA 13. >>> The word "accessible" might not be in the 2007 edition, but it does show up >>> in the 2010 edition: >>> >>> "8.15.3.2.1 In noncombustible stair shafts having noncombustible >>> stairs with noncombustible or limited-combustible finishes, sprinklers shall >>> be installed at the top of the shaft and under the first accessible landing >>> above the bottom of the shaft." >>> >>> In fact the word "accessible" is the only difference in the wording of this >>> paragraph between the two editions. >>> >>> Met vriendelijke groet / Yours sincerely, >>> >>> Frans Stoop >>> TOS architecture & fire protection >>> Netherlands <[email protected]> >>> Tel. +31-24-324 0112 >>> >>> >>> At 06:39 11-3-2011 -0700, you wrote: >>>> >>>> Under the lowest landing due to the possibility of that space being used >>>> for storage. If the space is totally enclosed then there is no access for >>>> storage and no head is required if the stair is non-combustible. The spec >>>> is correct. <sigh> The Engineer has taken some license on his quote of the >>>> 13 section. The word "accessible" is not in the script. So no gold star >>>> for him. >>>> >>>> NFPA 13, 2007 - 8.15.3.2.1 "In noncombustible stair shafts having >>>> noncombustible stairs with noncombustible or limited combustible finishes, >>>> sprinklers shall be installed at the top of the shaft and under the first >>>> landing above the bottom of the shaft." >>>> >>>> Craig L. Prahl, CET >>>> Fire Protection >>>> CH2MHILL >>>> Lockwood Greene >>>> 1500 International Drive >>>> Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >>>> Direct - 864.599.4102 >>>> Fax - 864.599.8439 >>>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cory Power >>>> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 7:19 AM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Sprinkler under first accessible landing >>>> >>>> I have an an engineer asking to provide a sprinkler under the first >>>> landing of a non-combustible stairwell. The spec for the job states that >>>> "Sprinkler shall be installed at top of shaft. Space below first landing >>>> is considered concealed, non-accessible, non-combustible, and hence does >>>> not require sprinkler protection." >>>> >>>> he engineer who is reviewing my plans sent me an email stating the >>>> following: >>>> >>>> *8.15.3.2 Noncombustible Construction.* >>>> >>>> *8.15.3.2.1 *In noncombustible stair shafts having noncombustible stairs >>>> with noncombustible or limited-combustible finishes, sprinklers shall be >>>> installed at the top of the shaft and under the first >>>> accessible*landing*above the bottom of the shaft. >>>> >>>> We always took this to mean the sprinklers are required under the first >>>> landing? And by accessible we took this to mean access could be provided >>>> by a access panel.." >>>> >>>> Is this the way I should be interpreting the code? Do I still have to >>>> sprinkler under the landing and make sure there's an access hatch? or >>>> should I be able to omit it like the spec indicates? >>>> >>>> I have been following this forum for a while now. This is the first >>>> question I have posted. >>>> >>>> - Cory >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ron Greenman >> Instructor >> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >> Bates Technical College >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >> Tacoma, WA 98405 >> >> [email protected] >> >> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >> >> 253.680.7346 >> 253.576.9700 (cell) >> >> Member: >> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >> >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >>_______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>_______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
