It would be great if there were allowances for systems that could be subdivided so that no more than xxx sq ft is disabled at a time rather than limit the entire system size.
On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Cahill, Christopher <[email protected]>wrote: > I'm not sure I agree they need to go away. I understand they didn't > exactly come from a well thought out principal based on some scientific > merit. But my reasoning goes like this. In a 208,000 sq.ft. building > right now we would have 4 systems. If a system is down for maintenance or > say to add a head in a new office there is a 75% chance the fire will start > in a sprinklered area. And yes I have been involved with two buildings > where the system was off when the fire started. Get rid of the limits and > there is a 100% chance the fire starts in an unsprinklered area during > these same down times. Double the current limits and it's 50/50. > Remember most work is in design build which almost always = lowest bid = > one system per building. > > Sure make the argument some places will have thoughtful engineers, > thoughtful contractors, or owners that are interested in issues like this > and I won't argue but what about the majority of work. Modify the limits > perhaps but they shouldn't go away. Maybe something like warehouses 100k, > HPS 40k, single tenant office buildings 50k, lease office 30k, malls by > tenant. By floor in lease or malls, building over 4 stories. > > Chris Cahill, PE* > Senior Fire Protection Engineer > Aviation & Facilities Group > Burns & McDonnell > P: 952.656.3652 > F: 952.229.2923 > [email protected] > www.burnsmcd.com > *Lic. in MN > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 9:16 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: 52,000 square feet > > These limitations need to go away. They're based on pipe schedules, and > not because the limitations are true , but merely because the schedule > stops at > 400 heads. In the days when schedules were developed 52K was a really big > building. > > On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Matt Grise <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Now that FM allows 60ksf, I have had more success convincing AHJ's > > that sprinkler systems still work when they exceed 52K. > > > > Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP > > Sales Engineer > > Alliance Fire Protection > > 130 w 9th Ave. > > North Kansas City, MO 64116 > > > > *Licensed in KS & MO > > > > 913.888.0647 ph > > 913.888.0618 f > > 913.927.0222 cell > > www. AFPsprink.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd - FPDC > > Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 12:46 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: 52,000 square feet > > > > Chris, I agree is that is what the Code says. However, the 52000 is an > > arbitrary number and has no real impact on protection. For a couple of > > thousand square feet, I wouldn't have a big problem suggesting it. > > Probably 3k max. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jan 2, 2012, at 12:46 PM, "Cahill, Christopher" > > <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > As a former AHJ many requests, all denied with I agree it's silly > > > but > > it's the law. > > > > > > As a former contractor wanted to make such requests but never did > > because it's not compliant with the law. > > > > > > As a current consultant would only make such request if specifically > > instructed by the client over my clearly documented objections. (with > > the hope the AHJ would back the law) > > > > > > And I don't think one can put a 52,000 sq.ft. aux dry system off a > > 52,000 sq.ft. wet system as an example. The combined systems are > > still limited to 52,000 sq.ft. So adding a control valve and flow > > switch at the additions off the existing isn't going to help. > > > > > > As any role would suggest if you can easier cut off 6,000 sq.ft. > > > near > > the riser and turn that into its own system. Avoids the long run and > > then add the new 6,000 to the end. > > > > > > Chris Cahill, PE* > > > Senior Fire Protection Engineer > > > Aviation & Facilities Group > > > Burns & McDonnell > > > P: 952.656.3652 > > > F: 952.229.2923 > > > [email protected] > > > www.burnsmcd.com > > > *Lic. in MN > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob > > > Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:31 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: RE: 52,000 square feet > > > > > > Greg, > > > I think that option two would be ok. It seems that it's ok to have > > > an > > auxiliary dry system off the end of a wet system, so an auxiliary wet > > system should work as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob Knight, CET III > > > 208-318-3057 > > > www.firebyknight.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg > > McGahan > > > Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 10:04 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: 52,000 square feet > > > > > > We have a school that is getting 2 small additions at the end of the > > wings of approx. 6,000 and 3,000 sqft respectively. If we tried to tie > > on to the end of one system to feed the larger addition, that system > > would be approximately 56,000 sqft. Th other two options (I guess) > > would be to run 250' of 3" back to the main riser and create a new > > system for this addition, or use it for both additions with another > > 300' or so of main, or maybe to put in a new control valve and flow > > switch at each addition to supply them. > > > I am not sure if the second option would meet the intent of the code > > > and > > I am too confused to figure this out this early in the year. > > > > > > The other addition appears to be on a system that is already about > > 53,000 sqft and adding the addition would also put it around the > > 56,000 mark. > > > > > > Has anybody ever asked for a variance on something like this? It > > honestly doesn't make any sense to put it in a separate system (other > > than to meet > > > code) because the operation of the system will not actually be > effected. > > > Especially in the way these systems are shaped, there are several > > different fire rated zones of much smaller area. > > > > > > Happy New Year and thanks, > > > > > > -- > > > Greg McGahan > > > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> > > > 1160 McKenzie Road > > > Cantonment, FL 32533 > > > 850-937-1850 > > > fax 850-937-1852 > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > > > scrubbed... > > > URL: > > > < > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attac > > hment > > > s/20120102/1eb1176e/attachment.html> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > ----- > > > No virus found in this message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4718 - Release Date: > > > 01/02/12 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20120103/c5838ccd/attachment.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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