Maybe not this century but in the next we will have an NFPA process where the committees will have to explain the rationale for the current rules before they can be carried over from one edition to the next. That would certainly make for some long meetings or some brief standards.
After working at this for about 40 years I have no idea how to propose a 55,000 sq ft system using NFPA 13. NFPA 13, 1.5 seems to make it simple "Technical documentation shall be submitted to the authority having jurisdiction to demonstrate equivalency", but actually it's impossible if the committee doesn't know how to do it. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 11:41 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: 52,000 square feet Statistically the single biggest reason for system failure is a closed valve so multiple valving (zoning) is not the answer. I think the shut down for maintenance system argument is the the area of spurious. What are the numbers on this occurring? And although I agree with limitations making some sort of sense just because without them abuse occurs, I think they do need to be based on stats and per risk type (as Chris suggests) rather than on how many heads the schedule (that is no longer used for the most part) goes to. On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Greg McGahan <g...@livingwaterfp.com> wrote: > It would be great if there were allowances for systems that could be > subdivided so that no more than xxx sq ft is disabled at a time rather > than limit the entire system size. > > On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Cahill, Christopher > <ccah...@burnsmcd.com > >wrote: > > > I'm not sure I agree they need to go away. I understand they didn't > > exactly come from a well thought out principal based on some > > scientific merit. But my reasoning goes like this. In a 208,000 > > sq.ft. building right now we would have 4 systems. If a system is > > down for maintenance > or > > say to add a head in a new office there is a 75% chance the fire > > will > start > > in a sprinklered area. And yes I have been involved with two > > buildings where the system was off when the fire started. Get rid > > of the limits > and > > there is a 100% chance the fire starts in an unsprinklered area > > during these same down times. Double the current limits and it's 50/50. > > Remember most work is in design build which almost always = lowest > > bid = one system per building. > > > > Sure make the argument some places will have thoughtful engineers, > > thoughtful contractors, or owners that are interested in issues like > > this and I won't argue but what about the majority of work. Modify > > the limits perhaps but they shouldn't go away. Maybe something like > > warehouses > 100k, > > HPS 40k, single tenant office buildings 50k, lease office 30k, malls > > by tenant. By floor in lease or malls, building over 4 stories. > > > > Chris Cahill, PE* > > Senior Fire Protection Engineer > > Aviation & Facilities Group > > Burns & McDonnell > > P: 952.656.3652 > > F: 952.229.2923 > > ccah...@burnsmcd.com > > www.burnsmcd.com > > *Lic. in MN > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: > > sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 9:16 AM > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > Subject: Re: 52,000 square feet > > > > These limitations need to go away. They're based on pipe schedules, > > and not because the limitations are true , but merely because the > > schedule stops at > > 400 heads. In the days when schedules were developed 52K was a > > really big building. > > > > On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Matt Grise <m...@afpsprink.com> wrote: > > > > > Now that FM allows 60ksf, I have had more success convincing AHJ's > > > that sprinkler systems still work when they exceed 52K. > > > > > > Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP > > > Sales Engineer > > > Alliance Fire Protection > > > 130 w 9th Ave. > > > North Kansas City, MO 64116 > > > > > > *Licensed in KS & MO > > > > > > 913.888.0647 ph > > > 913.888.0618 f > > > 913.927.0222 cell > > > www. AFPsprink.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: > > > sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd - FPDC > > > Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 12:46 PM > > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > Subject: Re: 52,000 square feet > > > > > > Chris, I agree is that is what the Code says. However, the 52000 > > > is an arbitrary number and has no real impact on protection. For a > > > couple of thousand square feet, I wouldn't have a big problem suggesting it. > > > Probably 3k max. > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > On Jan 2, 2012, at 12:46 PM, "Cahill, Christopher" > > > <ccah...@burnsmcd.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > As a former AHJ many requests, all denied with I agree it's > > > > silly but > > > it's the law. > > > > > > > > As a former contractor wanted to make such requests but never > > > > did > > > because it's not compliant with the law. > > > > > > > > As a current consultant would only make such request if > > > > specifically > > > instructed by the client over my clearly documented objections. > > > (with the hope the AHJ would back the law) > > > > > > > > And I don't think one can put a 52,000 sq.ft. aux dry system off > > > > a > > > 52,000 sq.ft. wet system as an example. The combined systems are > > > still limited to 52,000 sq.ft. So adding a control valve and flow > > > switch at the additions off the existing isn't going to help. > > > > > > > > As any role would suggest if you can easier cut off 6,000 sq.ft. > > > > near > > > the riser and turn that into its own system. Avoids the long run > > > and then add the new 6,000 to the end. > > > > > > > > Chris Cahill, PE* > > > > Senior Fire Protection Engineer > > > > Aviation & Facilities Group > > > > Burns & McDonnell > > > > P: 952.656.3652 > > > > F: 952.229.2923 > > > > ccah...@burnsmcd.com > > > > www.burnsmcd.com > > > > *Lic. in MN > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: > > > sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob > > > > Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 11:31 AM > > > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > > Subject: RE: 52,000 square feet > > > > > > > > Greg, > > > > I think that option two would be ok. It seems that it's ok to > > > > have an > > > auxiliary dry system off the end of a wet system, so an auxiliary > > > wet system should work as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob Knight, CET III > > > > 208-318-3057 > > > > www.firebyknight.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > > > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of > > > > Greg > > > McGahan > > > > Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 10:04 AM > > > > To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > > Subject: 52,000 square feet > > > > > > > > We have a school that is getting 2 small additions at the end of > > > > the > > > wings of approx. 6,000 and 3,000 sqft respectively. If we tried to > > > tie on to the end of one system to feed the larger addition, that > > > system would be approximately 56,000 sqft. Th other two options (I > > > guess) would be to run 250' of 3" back to the main riser and > > > create a new system for this addition, or use it for both > > > additions with another 300' or so of main, or maybe to put in a > > > new control valve and flow switch at each addition to supply them. > > > > I am not sure if the second option would meet the intent of the > > > > code and > > > I am too confused to figure this out this early in the year. > > > > > > > > The other addition appears to be on a system that is already > > > > about > > > 53,000 sqft and adding the addition would also put it around the > > > 56,000 mark. > > > > > > > > Has anybody ever asked for a variance on something like this? It > > > honestly doesn't make any sense to put it in a separate system > > > (other than to meet > > > > code) because the operation of the system will not actually be > > effected. > > > > Especially in the way these systems are shaped, there are > > > > several > > > different fire rated zones of much smaller area. > > > > > > > > Happy New Year and thanks, > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Greg McGahan > > > > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> > > > > 1160 McKenzie Road > > > > Cantonment, FL 32533 > > > > 850-937-1850 > > > > fax 850-937-1852 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > > > > scrubbed... > > > > URL: > > > > < > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/a > > > ttac > > > hment > > > > s/20120102/1eb1176e/attachment.html> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforu > > > > m > > > > ----- > > > > No virus found in this message. > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4718 - Release Date: > > > > 01/02/12 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforu > > > > m _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforu > > > > m > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ron Greenman > > Instructor > > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > > > rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu > > > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > > > 253.680.7346 > > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > > > Member: > > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > > scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attac > hments/20120103/c5838ccd/attachment.html > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > -- > Greg McGahan > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> > 1160 McKenzie Road > Cantonment, FL 32533 > 850-937-1850 > fax 850-937-1852 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: < > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attac > hments/20120103/0d9a9834/attachment.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachment s/20120103/c958c936/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
