Steve, Next time we are imbibing together remind me to tell you the story about: The Washing of the Raytheon Building at the Naval Undersea Warfare Center in Keyport and the Brain of the Enviro Nazi.
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Steve Leyton <[email protected]>wrote: > Dude: > > It's a GOVERNMENT REGULATION. I have no idea what's to wash or flush; > chances are there's no value to this additional layer of cost and hassle. > Next question: where does this filthy run-off go? Not to the storm drain > system I hope; the otters will be slowly poisoned. > > Steve > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Cahill, Christopher > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 10:10 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: RPZ for a dedicated private underground fire mains having > fire hydrants > > Really RW? We have a few problems with corrosion and MIC in potable > water. What else might be in these RW system that is going to eat up our > systems or I suppose might be better as a slim chance. Can the chemical > makeup of RW change over time and seasons further complicating what is does > to our systems? > > What's the FD going to wash and flush? > > Chris Cahill, PE* > Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation & Facilities Group Burns & > McDonnell > 8201 Norman Center Drive > Bloomington, MN 55437 > Phone: 952.656.3652 > Fax: 952.229.2923 > [email protected] > www.burnsmcd.com > > Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered > in: MN > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 11:53 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: RPZ for a dedicated private underground fire mains having > fire hydrants > > We are doing our first building system off RW at this time. From our due > diligence for the current project, we learned that in NorCal, there have > been a few building systems connected to reclaimed. There are some in the > Dublin/Pleasanton/Livermore area, if I recall correctly (Tom > McKinnon are you out there?). We've been told by the water purveyor > that no special treatment is required, but the fire dept. wants a wash & > flush station on the property. We're configuring the site main with > BFP's as if the source main was potable, and on paper everything looks > utterly conventional. > > SML > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Letterman, > Todd > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 9:38 AM > To: '[email protected]' > Subject: Re: RPZ for a dedicated private underground fire mains having > fire hydrants > > Hey Steve have you been on the design end of a Fire Protection System > using reclaimed water? If you have wanted to know what issues you ran > across if any? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Steve Leyton [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 09:33 AM > To: [email protected] <[email protected]> > Subject: RE: RPZ for a dedicated private underground fire mains having > fire hydrants > > Well ... as ridiculous as all this may sound ... > > In SoCal, we have water districts that are moving hard into reclaimed > water. Golf courses and public green areas such as parks and right of > way planters and medians, are being irrigated with reclaimed. Easiest and > most obvious application for RW as it can work quite well at low > residual pressures. But water wise thinking being as it is, and > bureaucracy being as IT is, we are now seeing reclaimed used for fire > water. And of course, the California Dept. of Health has a few opinions on > what you have to do with fire apparatus that has pumped RW, such as > completely clean and flush. So a BFP on a public hydrant, or on FD > suction hose is the next logical legislative "solution". > > SML > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 9:29 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: RPZ for a dedicated private underground fire mains having > fire hydrants > > Then should public street hydrants need BFP installed? > > > Arthur Tiroly > ATCO Fire Protection Design > Tiroly and Associates > 24400 Highland Rd rm 25, CLE 44143 > 216-621-8899 > 216-570-7030 Cell > WWW.ATCOfirepro.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > AKS-Gmail-IMAP > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 10:49 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: RPZ for a dedicated private underground fire mains having > fire hydrants > > I heard more about this today from an Illinois plumbing inspector. For > those interested, they (or maybe just he) consider a fire hydrant as a > device to which applies Part 890 Plumbing Code Section 890.1140 "Special > Applications and Installations". The catching sections are 890.1140 e) > 1) and 890.1140 e) > 2) A) i). All the applications and installations mentioned by this > section, i.e. that which are special, are hose outlets, yard hydrants with > weeps, flush valves, laundry machines, dishwashers, medical water > aspirators, mobile homes and carbonated beverage machines. > > One would think that section title "Special Applications and Installations" > intends to single out specifically named applications and installations. > For example there is a trade distinction between Yard Hydrants and Fire > Hydrants that any reasonable tradesman would know. If this code truly > intends to apply to both Yard Hydrants and Fire Hydrants then it would not > be "special" > and the wording would be "Hydrants". Incidentally there is no mention of > any fire protection related devices at all in the section. All mention of > fire protection devices, which surely must have special distinction to > most, occurs in a different 890 subsection. Claiming this section applies > also to fire protection is to expand its special scope to included another > very special application, thereby denying the section's purpose. > > The question stills stands for those in the Illinois area. Is this > actually the state's stance? For the case where I heard about this, the > "state" will be making another arm of the "state" put an RPZ device in a > hot box on the piping between an ordinary, existing fire hydrant and the > private main it connects to, because that one hydrant is being moved due to > a new drive and that section of existing underground is being replace, not > as its own small project but as part of a much larger project. > > Allan Seidel > St. Louis, MO > > On Jun 6, 2012, at 8:13 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > The 2006 Uniform Plumbing Code 603.4.16.1requires backflows in lines > > to FP systems. RPZ's are required for systems with chemicals like > > antifreeze or AFFF and double checks for others. It says they are not > > required for private hydrant only lines that comply with city water > > main and AWWA standards. > > > > To the best of my knowledge there is no requirement in the > > International Plumbing Code. > > > > > > Ron Fletcher > > Aero Automatic > > Phoenix, AZ > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected] > > ] On Behalf Of Timothy W Goins > > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 5:40 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: RPZ for a dedicated private underground fire mains having > > > fire hydrants > > > > Most THINK that the AWWA recommends BFP's on ALL firelines, especially > > > deadened lines over 100 feet, but the AWWA does NOT recommend backflow > > > protection on hydrant only lines. > > > > "For I am not ashamed of the gospel , , because it is God's power for > > salvation to everyone who believes..." HCS Romans 1:16 > > > > On Jun 6, 2012, at 12:56 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > > >> accounting departments see plus signs when they see marketing > >> department, lunch n learn, and regulatory agencies on the same spread > > >> sheet line lol (and some consulting engineering firms). > >> Steve- can you explain the USC friction loss graphs? there is some > >> diff in turning on and turning off? > >> Quoting Ron Greenman <[email protected]>: > >> > >>> I think the backflow prevention device manufacturers have a lot of > >>> influence with a fair share of regulatory agencies. > >>> > >>> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Steve Leyton > >>> <[email protected] > >>> >wrote: > >>> > >>>> Private fire service mains in CA have required backflows for years. > >>>> The type of device varies by water authority standards, but pretty > >>>> much throughout Southern California the use of an RPDA is standard > >>>> practice. > >>>> Whether the downstream connections are sprinklers only, plus one > >>>> hydrant or with multiple hydrants, a backflow appliance is required > > >>>> on a private > >>>> fire service main. The thinking isn't that hydrants represent a > >>>> cross > >>>> connection or contamination threat per se, but that a private > >>>> property owner can make whatever connections they want in the dark > >>>> of night after > >>>> final acceptance testing. So better safe than sorry, > >>>> bureaucratically > >>>> speaking ... > >>>> > >>>> SML > >>>> In SoCal, where nothing surprises anymore > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> > >>>> From: [email protected] on behalf of > >>>> AKS-Gmail-IMAP > >>>> Sent: Tue 6/5/2012 7:24 PM > >>>> To: [email protected] > >>>> Subject: RPZ for a dedicated private underground fire mains having > >>>> fire hydrants > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I am hearing that in Illinois the state plumbing inspectors insist > >>>> on RPZ back flow prevention for fire hydrants on dedicated > >>>> underground private service mains. What is up with that? > >>>> > >>>> Allan Seidel > >>>> St. Louis. MO > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was > >>>> scrubbed... > >>>> Name: winmail.dat > >>>> Type: application/ms-tnef > >>>> Size: 4685 bytes > >>>> Desc: not available > >>>> URL: < > >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/ > >>>> att > >>>> achments/20120605/c0c6b675/attachment.bin > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Ron Greenman > >>> Instructor > >>> Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > >>> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > >>> Tacoma, WA 98405 > >>> > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > >>> > >>> 253.680.7346 > >>> 253.576.9700 (cell) > >>> > >>> Member: > >>> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > >>> > >>> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > > >>> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > >>> scrubbed... > >>> URL: > >>> <http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/ > >>> att > >>> achments/20120605/19d8453d/attachment.html> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attach > ment > s/20120606/015d1967/attachment.html> > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20120607/9c8d00e1/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
