How will the flow increase if all you are doing is increasing the ID to every pipe?
Duane -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Matthew Willis Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 10:59 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Changing Pipe Sizes I believe we are saying the same thing to a different result. I have replaced a system from 40 to 10 before and had the bottom drop out as the flow was not there. It all goes back to the flow test. It is hard to speak specifics to the copper leak situation as there is far too much info missing. Bottom line, the pressure will drop yes. The flow will increase. Inversely proportional and all. Depending on supply, this can be detrimental to a system as well. You get the same result changing from 1/2" to 17/32" sprinklers. I have also had to get creative because the larger orifice robbed my gallons. Also remember, what size riser and backflow? The increased gallons will cause higher pressure loss in backflow and meter (if present). If we go 50gpm more due to larger pipe, does this exceed the listed backflow size/range? So many questions. I believe it still boils down to having to re-prove the system as they simply do not match. R/ Matt <--- PROUD owner of Autosprink :-) On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Duane Johnson <[email protected] > wrote: > That is the point, increasing the pipe size does not necessarily > increase the required flow. If you are changing only portions of the > system, it will depend on which segment you are changing among other > factors, such as velocity. > > However, if you are increasing the ID to every segment in your system, > the overall effect will be a less demanding system. This is inherent > in the Hazen-Williams formula...p=(4.52*Q^1.85)/(C^1.85*d^4.87). Yes, > increasing Q will increase the friction loss in a pipe. But, > increasing diameter will decrease the friction loss in a pipe because > d is in the denominator. More importantly, d is raised to the 4.87 while Q is > only raised to the 1.85. > So, even if Q is increased slightly, increasing the d will have the > larger effect. In this case (a one for one replacement throughout), > increasing the ID will reduce the friction loss and in turn reduce the > overall pressure requirement. > > Try it. If you have AutoSprink, use the Wizard to create a tree > system...just click next until it is finished (the parameters don't > matter at this point). Then, start changing the IDs. Remember to keep > the C factor constant (cuz in this example it does not change). If you > are using HASS, take one of your old calcs and replace your existing > sch 40 branchlines with sch 10. Your calc will be less demanding. :) > > Duane > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Matthew > Willis > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 9:53 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: copper pipe vs CPVC > > So if increasing the pipe changes the required flow from 100gpm to > 200gpm due to the larger size, you do not think this is more demanding? > Would you please change subject line for me/us as gmail is showing > it's butt. Thanks, > > Matt > > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 8:17 AM, Duane Johnson < > [email protected]> > wrote: > > > Your statement earlier holds true only if portions of the system are > > being replaced. I was under the assumption the entire system was > > being replaced, in which increasing diameter will not be more demanding. > > > > And yes, there is more to calcs... > > > > Duane > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Matthew > > Willis > > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 7:32 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: copper pipe vs CPVC > > > > There is more to a calc than just pressure. Flow is also part. Why > > do you think we are required to pick the sprinkler closer to the > > main on a tree calc? > > R/ > > Matt > > On Aug 11, 2014 7:23 AM, "Duane Johnson" > > <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > No, no, no. As long as you are increasing the ID along the > > > primary path, you are not making the calc more demanding. > > > Increasing the ID reduces the friction loss per ft. and reduces > > > the overall required pressure of the system. > > > > > > Duane > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > Matthew Willis > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 7:54 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: copper pipe vs CPVC > > > > > > Especially since the I.D. like you said is larger. This often = > > > more demanding. Bigger is not always better. > > > > > > R/ > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 4:40 PM, Brad Casterline > > > <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > It just occurred to me though Douglas (on a smoke break as > > > > usual) I would be worried that the existing pipe size is per > > > > code, so I would calc it anyway. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Brad Casterline [mailto:[email protected]] > > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 3:30 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: RE: copper pipe vs CPVC > > > > > > > > Both C=150 and the best part is it looks like the I.D of CPVC is > > > > bigger than type K,L, and M copper. > > > > > > > > Brad > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Douglas Hicks [mailto:[email protected]] > > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 1:41 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: copper pipe vs CPVC > > > > > > > > One of our group homes has leaking copper pipe. The owner told > > > > me their experience is to replace the copper with CPVC. I like > > > > that, faster and easier for us. But, do I need to get the > > > > system re-engineered when changing to CPVC? Can I just replace > > > > size for like size? > > > > > > > > The system is 20+ years old so I am going to propose new sprinklers. > > > > Besides, some of the heads are corroded and some have paint on them. > > > > We will also provide a means to test the antifreeze, at present > > > > there is no way to test the solution. > > > > > > > > I am going to exclude sheet rock and painting from the job. > > > > > > > > Douglas Hicks > > > > General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-fires > > > > pr > > > > in > > > > kl > > > > er.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-fires > > > > pr > > > > in > > > > kl > > > > er.org > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-fires > > > > pr > > > > in > > > > kl > > > > er.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr > > > in kl er.org _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr > > > in > > > kl > > > er.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl er.org _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > er.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
