Chris, with all due respect read what's being said and questioned, especially the 1000 or so displaced occupants. And yes there was collateral damage, and no the 13R didn't operate the people got out on their own. The water flow alarm...not because of sprinkler operation. The average person doesn't understand this stuff, especially sprinklers where opponents are telling them Hollywood stories about sprinklers.
John Drucker - Mobile Email [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cell/Text 732-904-6823 "Cahill, Christopher" <[email protected]> wrote: Wonder why anyone is making excuses for this incident and 13R? And I suppose light weight construction and pedestal buildings. Honestly the fire service and code officials should be out there screaming the SUCCESS of this incident relative to the expectations. No one died right? THAT is the only intent of this construction. It's a simple concept. Get everybody out and if you lose some stuff so be it. Did it spread beyond the building of origin? If not another SCREAMING SUCCESS as with fire walls and setbacks that is the secondary purpose of the code, don't burn your neighbors building down. If it did hope a street or breach a rated wall then that is what needs to be talked about. There never was or is the expectation this situation would not occur. If there is any problem it's the expectations are not known to those who inherited the risk. I'm tired of the fire service whining about these things especially light weight construction. Make sure the smoke detectors are working, reduce the start of fires through education and cause and origin, tell the public there are risks they should be aware of, tell the public what their tactics are, keep the fire from going to the neighbors and make proper tactical decisions which means don't go inside some buildings under some circumstances. Calculate the risk and react accordingly. Let the public decide then what they want to do. For example nearly every person I talk to rejects home sprinklers. I'm not talking about builders or those with financial interest, just average friends and family. Don't blame the builders and legislators, this is what the public wants and at least the legislators are doing the public's wishes at this point. No firefighter should die driving their truck and no firefighter should die in a building that doesn't have a known civilian in it. Dying for property is just dumb. I'm sure I offended some with this paragraph. So be it. I was a firefighter for almost 20 year. AHJ for 10. (I'm not that old, many of these years crossed over). Now I'm just an evil slimy consultant. I do respect many have a different opinions. And when I say neighbor I mean the building not an individual living unit. Do we have the technology to keep most fires to the object of origin, sure, but it comes with a cost. The fire service and even the legislators don't get to make that call. The public currently doesn't want to pay it. Chris Cahill, PE* Associate Fire Protection Engineer Burns & McDonnell Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 [email protected] www.burnsmcd.com<http://www.burnsmcd.com> *Registered in: MN Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work For -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 5:23 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: 13D exterior overhangs. Ron, I know this is a sore subject that's been brought to a boil with the recent loss of a significant building displacing some 1000 people in the middle of winter. As both a firefighter and code official I am not alone, the public is also questioning this paradigm as well as the speaker of the assembly in New Jersey. What happened in Edgewater was just a matter of time. Its not all 13R's fault, combustible construction, pedestal buildings..... a cocktail for disaster. Steve said it best, local building and fire officials have been handcuffed. John Drucker - Mobile Email [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Cell/Text 732-904-6823 "rongreenman ." <[email protected]> wrote: Hardly John. 13D and 13R are standards for different types of buildings and not stepping stones to better fire protection. On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 8:49 PM, John Drucker <[email protected]> wrote: > Steve, NFPA handed them the weapon, 13R.... > > As for IRC I subscribe to the life safety part (13D/P2904) for > dwellings, hey its you're home. > > But multiple dwellings on pedestals where we start counting stories at > the pedestal ?, wood frame 5 stories up ?, and then not fully > sprinklered ?.....13R ? > > > John Drucker - Mobile Email > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > Cell/Text 732-904-6823 > > > Steve Leyton <[email protected]> wrote: > > Yeah, how about somebody file a lawsuit against the NAHB or all the > homebuilders who have lobbied and gotten return for the political > patronage in the way of suspended residential sprinkler requirements or other > such > loopholes or relaxations? This is dirty business, but it's the only way > that things area going to change. Go to the Fire Sprinkler Initiative's > website and look for the page that has "Sprinkler Requirements By State". > I realize this is off the topic of Edgewater a bit, but it's > outrageous how many state legislatures have passed prohibitions against any > ordinance > or adoptions. They completely handcuffed local building and fire > officials ... > > I've been asked to consult on projects where owners and/or architects are > trying to get 13D accepted instead of 13R, or 13R instead of 13. I won't > take the jobs, but I'm offered one or more a month. > > SL > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum on behalf of John Drucker > Sent: Thu 1/29/2015 6:32 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: 13D exterior overhangs. > > Owen, agreed 13D does not require heads under overhangs. What I am > saying is what's to stop an adopting agency from amending the standard > ?, nothing. Until a code or standard is adopted it has no jurisdiction. > > In any case I understand the value of 13D and P2904 hence why I > supported their use for amendments to R300 of the NJIRC. The recent > events in Edgewater NJ may change how and when 13R is deployed despite > the standards intent. People up there are really pissed, a second lawsuit was > filed today. > > John > > > > John Drucker - Mobile Email > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > Cell/Text 732-904-6823 > > > [email protected] wrote: > > John, > Thank you for responding. It goes back to the intent of 13D, to > provide people 10 minutes to escape and for the system to be affordable to > install. > If the place burns to the ground but everyone escaped, the system > worked 100% as intended. It drives me crazy as inspectors come and go > they add their personal wants and desires for these systems without > following proper procedure. 13D does not require heads in exterior over-hangs. > Owen Evans > Former AHJ now 13D designer and consultant. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jan 29, 2015, at 5:46 PM, "John Drucker - Home" < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > Firstin, > > > > The question is too vague to be answered. As an active AHJ there are > > many variables, adopted codes and standards, local amendments, > > special circumstances not addressed by the code, variations, site > > approval trade offs and on and on. In order to answer the question > > each one of those > has to > > be addressed. Believe it or not most AHJ's have an underlying need, > > real > or > > imagined, that they are trying to address. Keep in mind cost is not > > one > of > > them since the AHJ doesn't (and shouldn't) profit from requiring > protection. > > I'm not defending this AHJ but you have to dig deeper. > > > > Lastly I've said this time and time again, why are designers and > contractors > > engaged in these arguments with AHJ's ?. Convey your situation to the > > beneficiary, that being the owner of the property. If he/she > > disagrees > let > > them take up the fight through appeal. > > > > John Drucker > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] > > On Behalf Of [email protected] > > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 6:29 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: 13D exterior overhangs. > > > > 13D does not require heads in exterior over-hangs, such as a second > > story over-hanging a driveway. Can an AHJ apply 13 rules to 13D > > systems > without an > > amendment and require heads in over-hangs 4' & greater? > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. 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