Thank you all! These discussions are exactly what make this forum such a valuable informational asset!
All of the replies gave valuable insight into how this arrangement could be interpreted, as well as misinterpreted to believe there was a greater hazard present than there is. It is also reassuring to have you all look at the issue with "new eyes". Thanks again John Paulsen Crown FSD From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 2:42 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: HDPE Plastic Bin Box Storage What has been described are often referred to as folding bulk containers, folding pallet containers or similar. They are open on the top and are designed to be stacked on upon another directly on the floor. No racking is required. Each empty container can represent approximately 80-150 lbs or more of a Group A plastic. The cited conditions are only stacked two units high. NFPA 13 Chapters 16 and 17 are related to rack storage, the description of the condition does not include racks. So those portions of the text are not applicable to the topic. Since the commodity within pose no fuel load, the exposed plastic container is the item of concern as far as its exposure to sprinkler discharge. If and that's a big IF, a container were to collapse, spillage of the contents has no impact on fire growth and the collapse of the unit would expose more surface area of the unit to the sprinkler discharge. Essentially you have a palletized plastics commodity. Back to 15.2.6(a) Col. E based on decision tree 15.5.2 for Group A, Nonexpanded, Stable, Exposed. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540 Fax - 864.920.7129 CH2MHILL Extension 77540 [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jim Davidson Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2016 2:27 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: HDPE Plastic Bin Box Storage [EXTERNAL] John, Open top HDPE Plastic Bin boxes is a configuration of storage not covered by NFPA 13 since the open top bin boxes stops the sprinkler water discharge form delivering the required delivered density. Additionally NFPA 13 2016 edition; 1. Paragraph 16.1.7 states 16.1.7 Open-Top Containers. The protection of open-top containers shall be considered outside the scope of Chapter 16. See Section C.12. And 2. Paragraph 16.2.3.3 ESFR sprinklers shall not be permitted to protect storage with open top containers. 3. Paragraph 16.3.3.2 ESFR protection as defined shall not apply to the following: (1) Rack storage involving solid shelves, except for situations complying with 16.3.3.2.1 (2) Rack storage involving open-top cartons or containers. 4. 17.1.6 Open-Top Containers. The protection of open-top containers is outside the scope of Chapter 17. (See SectionC.12.) 5. Paragraph 17.2.3.1.1 ESFR protection as defined shall not apply to the following: (1) Rack storage involving solid shelves, except as permitted by 17.2.3.1.2 (2) Rack storage involving open-top cartons or containers 6. Paragraph 17.3.3.1.2 ESFR sprinklers shall not be permitted to protect storage with open-top containers. The following is Appendix "A" explanation A.3.9.1.19 Open-Top Container. Open-top containers can prevent water from running across the top to storage and down the flues and can also collect water. The container will prevent water penetration to a fire in lower levels where it is needed. Rack or flue collapse can also occur if too much water is collected. Consideration should be given to the potential degree of water collection possible within the container when applying the definition of an open-top container. The following conditions should be considered: (1) Small openings at the top of containers containing such items as fresh produce are quite common and should not be considered as an open-top container. (2) Arrangements that include open-top containers that are all located on the bottom tier of rack storage do not prevent penetration of water and should not be considered an open-top container. (3) Containers having either wire mesh siding or large uniform openings along the bottom perimeter of each container, such that water enters the container at the same flow rate and discharge evenly into the flue spaces should not be considered as an open-top container provided the contents of the container are not water absorbent and are not capable of blocking such container openings. The protection of this type of storage is clearly not under the "practice" of a NICET tech following the prescribed protection guidelines of a published NFPA standard (White Paper developed by SFPE, NICET and NSPE) especially since the standard states many times that open-top containers are not covered by the standard. The specifying engineer might be "outside" his/her "area of competence" as defined by the Professional Engineering Laws and Code of Ethics formulated by the state or commonwealth they are "practicing" in. Just my two cents and interpretation by a NICET Tech when NFPA 13 specifically states that the protection of open top containers are outside the scope of specific NFPA 13 chapters could be considered the practice of engineering and subject their company to an E & O exposure not covered by the company's insurance policy. Why expose yourself and your company to such an exposure. Have a fire safe day! Regards Jim Davidson Associates Fire Protection Engineering P. O. Box 4002 Code Consultants Greenville, DE 19807 (302) 994-9500 Fax (302) 994-3414 CONFIDENTIALITY This report and any attachments are confidential and also may be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, or have otherwise received this report in error, please destroy the report, notify the sender immediately, and do not disclose its contents to any other person, use them for any purpose, or store or copy them in any medium. Thank you for your cooperation. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Paulsen Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2016 11:31 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: HDPE Plastic Bin Box Storage Jeff: I appreciate your "caution" on this and perhaps I am overreaching here. But in my view, I'm just trying to correctly interpret the commodity classification and arrangement as it relates to the storage provisions of NFPA-13, which should fall under my practice. In fact, I am working with a specifying engineer on this who is just as baffled by the insurance underwriter's concerns as I am. The problem is, this arrangement is not "specifically" addressed in 13. Is this bin box storage, (it's not cardboard or corrugated) or open container storage? From everything that I can tell, if it meet the OHII curve, that should be the governing requirement. Thanks, John Paulsen - SET Crown Fire System Design 6282 Seeds Rd. Grove City, OH 43123 P - 614-782-2438 F - 614-782-2374 C - 614-348-8206 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jeff Hewitt Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 11:03 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: HDPE Plastic Bin Box Storage John, I'm writing off on the forum because I don't want to stir up a hornets nest. Isn't this an engineering decision, not a NICET SET decision? I'm just saying, why would you want to take that liability as a NICET SET, and also potentially violate your NICET Certification by practicing engineering. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, PM.SFPE Corporate Engineer American Fire Protection, Inc. 5525 Eastcliff Industrial Loop | Birmingham, AL 35210 205-591-9111 ext. 1452 | 205-317-0918 (cell) 205-591-9990 (Fax) Licensed in AL, AR, FL, GA, IL, KY, MS, MO, NC, SC, TN, TX Fire sprinklers save lives. Can you live without them? Please note that any positions expressed above are my professional opinion only, as a member of the NFPA 13 Technical Committee, and do not represent an official interpretation of the NFPA 13 standard. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Paulsen Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2016 9:43 AM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: HDPE Plastic Bin Box Storage Hello All! I am working with a truck parts supplier who has moved into an existing warehouse and I am providing a design study to them on the existing system. Pertinent Facts: 6"x6"x2" Grid with K-8.0 Upright Heads fed by a pump. Pipe is at 25' AFF. Metal truck parts storage in HDPE Plastic Bin Boxes stored no higher than 10' Existing system with 500 GPM hose calcs to .60 GPM / 3,000. Tokyo Mutual Insurance Personally I think the system provides adequate protection for the storage configuration. In fact it is MORE than sufficient according to NFPA 13, Ch 14. However the insurance company is maintaining that the plastic bin storage boxes represent an additional hazard. This is a new experience for me. My contention is that the Bin Boxes, even though they are made of HDPE Plastic, do not represent an increase to the commodity classification because of their higher flash point. (which is information I can't seem to find right now) Is there a fire test out there that indicates these bin boxes represent an increased hazard? John Paulsen - SET Crown Fire System Design 6282 Seeds Rd. Grove City, OH 43123 P - 614-782-2438 F - 614-782-2374 C - 614-348-8206
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