Thanks Craig:
These bins are 48" square "folding pallet containers" stacked by two's. There is no shelving or racking involved, so as a percentage, there is far less plastic than metal. My thinking is to apply 13.2.1 Group A Plastics - "unexpanded/Expanded" - >5' <10' = EH2 (.4 over 2,500) The existing overhead system will provide .6/2,500 with a 40% safety margin. Thoughts - Arguments? Thanks, John Paulsen - SET Crown Fire System Design 6282 Seeds Rd. Grove City, OH 43123 P - 614-782-2438 F - 614-782-2374 C - 614-348-8206 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 12:05 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: HDPE Plastic Bin Box Storage Their concern is whether or not the plastic bins are being considered, not just the stored Class I (metal parts) commodity and it's a valid point if there are a considerable amount of bins. If it's one or two short shelves maybe it's not a big issue with a .6 density, but that would be an AHJ and Insurer call. HDPE falls into the Group A plastics category. The metal parts are irrelevant to the case. You have shelves full of plastic bins. If the bins were empty how would you classify the storage? If you look at NFPA 13 (2013) Table 15.2.6(a), for storage >5ft but ?12ft, Roof/Ceiling height at >20 to 32ft (you said system pipe was at 25 ft), the density shown is 0.7 gpm/sf for Nonexpanded, stable, exposed. If in fact your final analysis of the design criteria does show a requirement of .7 gpm/sf, I'd calculate the existing systems as-is and see if it can meet that criteria. You might not need to change anything other than prove it works as-is. Then you'd also need to be sure the water supply is adequate for the increased flow demand. The other thing to consider is the NFPA 13 criteria only requires calculating of a 2,500 sq. ft. hyd. area, the 3,000 sf area sounds like an insurer requirement so you may have some wiggle room there hydraulically if you compare the 0.6@3000 <mailto:0.6@3000> to 0.7@2500 <mailto:0.7@2500> but you won't know for sure until you run the calc. I would be looking at the plastics, not the metal parts. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540 Fax - 864.920.7129 CH2MHILL Extension 77540 craig.pr...@ch2m.com <mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Paulsen Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2016 11:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: HDPE Plastic Bin Box Storage [EXTERNAL] Jeff: I appreciate your "caution" on this and perhaps I am overreaching here. But in my view, I'm just trying to correctly interpret the commodity classification and arrangement as it relates to the storage provisions of NFPA-13, which should fall under my practice. In fact, I am working with a specifying engineer on this who is just as baffled by the insurance underwriter's concerns as I am. The problem is, this arrangement is not "specifically" addressed in 13. Is this bin box storage, (it's not cardboard or corrugated) or open container storage? From everything that I can tell, if it meet the OHII curve, that should be the governing requirement. Thanks, John Paulsen - SET Crown Fire System Design 6282 Seeds Rd. Grove City, OH 43123 P - 614-782-2438 F - 614-782-2374 C - 614-348-8206 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Hewitt Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 11:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: HDPE Plastic Bin Box Storage John, I'm writing off on the forum because I don't want to stir up a hornets nest. Isn't this an engineering decision, not a NICET SET decision? I'm just saying, why would you want to take that liability as a NICET SET, and also potentially violate your NICET Certification by practicing engineering. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, PM.SFPE Corporate Engineer American Fire Protection, Inc. 5525 Eastcliff Industrial Loop | Birmingham, AL 35210 205-591-9111 ext. 1452 | 205-317-0918 (cell) 205-591-9990 (Fax) Licensed in AL, AR, FL, GA, IL, KY, MS, MO, NC, SC, TN, TX Fire sprinklers save lives. Can you live without them? Please note that any positions expressed above are my professional opinion only, as a member of the NFPA 13 Technical Committee, and do not represent an official interpretation of the NFPA 13 standard. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Paulsen Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2016 9:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: HDPE Plastic Bin Box Storage Hello All! I am working with a truck parts supplier who has moved into an existing warehouse and I am providing a design study to them on the existing system. Pertinent Facts: 6"x6"x2" Grid with K-8.0 Upright Heads fed by a pump. Pipe is at 25' AFF. Metal truck parts storage in HDPE Plastic Bin Boxes stored no higher than 10' Existing system with 500 GPM hose calcs to .60 GPM / 3,000. Tokyo Mutual Insurance Personally I think the system provides adequate protection for the storage configuration. In fact it is MORE than sufficient according to NFPA 13, Ch 14. However the insurance company is maintaining that the plastic bin storage boxes represent an additional hazard. This is a new experience for me. My contention is that the Bin Boxes, even though they are made of HDPE Plastic, do not represent an increase to the commodity classification because of their higher flash point. (which is information I can't seem to find right now) Is there a fire test out there that indicates these bin boxes represent an increased hazard? John Paulsen - SET Crown Fire System Design 6282 Seeds Rd. Grove City, OH 43123 P - 614-782-2438 F - 614-782-2374 C - 614-348-8206
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