Kyle: Your description is how the fire sprinkler contractor viewed it. That basically it couldnt trap heat so no sprinklers would be practical.
The architect is pushing the sprinkler issue. And as usual with architect and fancy features, he wants no pipe visible and his details he created to depict how the sprinklers would be piped and located do not comply with NFPA 13 for sprinkler location, spacing and positioning. In addition, the pipe routing he desires is not possible. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC "Follow" us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to MFP Design via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 26, 2018, at 7:16 AM, Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]> wrote: > > Taking the openings out of it for a second: If it was solid, would it meet > the requirements for omitting sprinklers under an exterior projection? If > there will be no combustibles stored underneath, I think you can make the > argument that sprinklers are not required based on that, right? > > Back to the original question: The sections where the 70% open is mentioned I > believe are all areas inside the building where there are sprinklers above as > well. So the requirement is two-fold: Inability to trap heat (both allowing > sprinklers above to activate, and decreasing the ability for sprinklers below > to activate) and allowing water from sprinklers above to reach the hazard. > Since you are outside, the second half of that is null and void. > > So now you’re only concerned with the ability to trap heat, which probably > means you can make an argument that it could be quite a bit less than 70% > open and still not need sprinklers. The reasoning is once again two-fold: > 1. Inability to trap heat keeps sprinklers from operating properly. > 2. Inability to trap heat or for fire to spread (canopy is > noncombustible) means there isn’t a real need for sprinklers. Unless there is > a very heavy fuel load stored there, a fire in a garbage can (for example) is > pretty much inconsequential (i.e. not much of a life safety or property > damage concern). > > That’s my two pennies. Sorry I can’t point to a smoking gun in the code. > > Kyle Montgomery > <image001.png> > Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. > 21605 N. Central Ave. > Phoenix, AZ 85024 > Direct: 623.580.7820 > Cell: 602.763.4736 > [email protected] > > > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Travis Mack > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 6:23 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: % open > > The canopy itself that is spread over the steel members is what the architect > is keying on to push the sprinkler requirement. > > And this canopy is a mesh material that may or may not be able to trap heat > to activate sprinklers. > > Travis Mack, SET > MFP Design, LLC > "Follow" us on Facebook: > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > Send large files to MFP Design via: > https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 26, 2018, at 5:00 AM, Prahl, Craig/GVL <[email protected]> wrote: > > If it’s all steel, I’d ignore it and be done. > > Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | > [email protected] | www.jacobs.com > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of MFP Design, LLC > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 6:23 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: % open > > This is all steel construction. The exterior projection overhang is steel > construction and the new add on to the clubhouse that this projects from is > also steel construction. > > <image002.jpg> > Travis Mack, SET > MFP Design, LLC > 3356 E Vallejo Ct > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > 480-505-9271 > fax: 866-430-6107 > email:[email protected] > > http://www.mfpdesign.com > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack > > “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price > is forgotten.” > > From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On > Behalf Of AKS-Gmail-IMAP > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 2:39 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: % open > > This sounds like the “Architect has an archictectural feature right up > against the building problem.” Each case differs in some way of course. > > The wood pergola, once you see how they plan to build it, can be otherwise, > accurately described as “wood pallets on sticks”. Often they want to put it > next to the main building structure starting from underneath the roof > overhang. That is problematic when the main structure is wood. > > It probably will have electrical lighting circuits. > > Since there has to be some compromise to mitigate conditions, perhaps > something in all the involved disciplines (like starting the feature out from > under the roof because after all it probably cannot be cantelivered and > supporting one end on the main structure is asking for structural problems > down the line), you might be able sidewall the situation with the idea the > main structure is what get protected. Maybe that will fly. > > Allan Seidel > St. Louis, MO > > > On Jun 25, 2018, at 10:51 AM, Wayne Cordiner <[email protected]> wrote: > > Could you apply 8.15.7.4 to omit? > This doesn’t take into account the “trellis” type ceiling but being the > trellis will not have walls and no occupancy above (A.8.15.7.2) I would think > you can omit coverage. > A bit of a stretch as far as backing it up with code though, I know. > > Regards, > > Wayne T. Cordiner, Jr. > 917-426-5844 > [email protected] > > On Jun 25, 2018, at 10:35, Travis Mack <[email protected]> wrote: > > It’s a golf clubhouse with a radius projection. There are limited spots to > hang if we have to protect this space. It’s just a big cluster bomb. > > > Travis Mack, SET > MFP Design, LLC > "Follow" us on Facebook: > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > Send large files to MFP Design via: > https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 25, 2018, at 8:24 AM, Prahl, Craig/GVL <[email protected]> wrote: > > 8.15.14 doesn’t apply to this application. That section is for grated > “ceilings” installed below sprinklers. > > Trellis construction being open is similar to a pergola where there is no > ceiling/roof. > > Being open, you can’t trap heat or smoke as long as they don’t plan to let > plants grow on the trellis work to create a “green roof/ceiling”. > > Is this for public seating? If it is, there may be local requirements for > overhead materials if they are combustible. > > > > Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | > [email protected] | www.jacobs.com > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 11:02 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: % open > > Then I don’t think the section sited below is the correct application. I’m > honestly not sure where that is quantified. We usually are successful making > the argument that it won’t trap heat, but I can’t think of where that’s > actually spelled out in the code. I’m interested in the responses to this > one. > > Would it not otherwise meet the criteria for omitting sprinklers under an > exterior projection? > > -Kyle M > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of MFP Design, LLC > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 7:52 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: % open > > Yes. That is exactly it. > > <image001.jpg> > Travis Mack, SET > MFP Design, LLC > 3356 E Vallejo Ct > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > 480-505-9271 > fax: 866-430-6107 > email:[email protected] > > http://www.mfpdesign.com > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack > > “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price > is forgotten.” > > From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On > Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 7:52 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: % open > > Travis, > > Are you talking about an exterior trellis? Something that would not have > sprinklers above, just open to the sky above? > > -Kyle M > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of John Paulsen > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 7:48 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: % open > > 8.15.14.1 (2013) > > John Paulsen – SET > Crown Fire System Design > 6282 Seeds Rd. > Grove City, OH 43123 > P – 614-782-2438 > F – 614-782-2374 > C – 614-348-8206 > > > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of MFP Design, LLC > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 10:44 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: % open > > I have a project where the architect is asking what is the % opening required > in a trellis type structure so that sprinklers are not required. 70% open is > coming to mind, but I can’t find a section referencing anything like that. > Can anyone help point me in the right direction? > > <image002.jpg> > Travis Mack, SET > MFP Design, LLC > 3356 E Vallejo Ct > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > 480-505-9271 > fax: 866-430-6107 > email:[email protected] > > http://www.mfpdesign.com > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack > > “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price > is forgotten.” > > ________________________________________________________________________________________ > NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged > information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. 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