Prompted by the question from Ron, and having a few moments this
morning, I did some research.
* NFPA 24 (2016), §10.10.2.5.1, "The backflow assembly shall be
forward flow tested to ensure proper operation."
* NFPA 13 (2016) §25.2.5.1, identical to -24, and §25.2.5.2, "The
minimum flow rate shall be the system demand, including hose stream
allowance where applicable."
o In the annex §A.8.16.2.4.2 the advisory language suggests that
sizing the drain connection to flow the system demand flow
provides a practical means of performing this full forward flow
testing.
* NFPA 13 (2016), §8.17.4.5.1 "Means shall be provided downstream of
all backflow prevention valves for forward flow tests at a minimum
flow rate of the system demand including hose allowance where
applicable"
* The material test certificate in Figure 25.1 requires the
identification of how this test is to be accomplished.
* NFPA 25 (2023) §13.7.2.1 requires the full forward flow test at the
system demand (at a minimum) annually. And this is also noted in
Table 13.1.1.2
sincerely,
*Ken Wagoner, SET*
*Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235*
*Phone: (760) 745-6181 *
*Visit the website
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2f&c=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK&typo=1>*
On 11/18/2022 8:43 PM, Ron Greenman wrote:
Being semi/mostly out of the game I don't keep as up-to-date as I
maybe should be and so I don't have too many standards left having
donated many to those still in need. So my question is where is the
requirement mentioned? 13, 24, 25, all? That should be a guide as to
who is ultimately responsible for the installation. In Washington, it
could be the UG guy since they have to have special licensure based on
a knowledge of 24 but arguably not the responsible party if it's not a
thing in 24 (hence my question). Regardless there
is a requirement and someone has to provide a method, but your
question seemed to be rhetorical so lots of ways to cook the cat.
On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 2:49 PM Timothy Goins <[email protected]> wrote:
AWWA used to NOT recommend BPA upstream of fire hydrants.
Haven’t checked in a few years now.
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within
you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will
give them an heart of flesh
Eze 11:19
On Nov 18, 2022, at 4:25 PM, Bob Caputo
<[email protected]> wrote:
Backflow preventers are actually not always required. NFPA
standards do not require them – but where the water purveyor does,
NFPA provides installation requirements. When a back flow is
required, the type and location are the purview of the water district.
If arranged to allow full forward flow, a hydrant or even the
annual fire pump test or standpipe flow testing could qualify as
the means to perform a forward flow test
*Bob Caputo, CFPS*
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*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
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*From:* Michael Slaughter <[email protected]>
*Sent:* Friday, November 18, 2022 4:14 PM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire
sprinklers <[email protected]>
*Cc:* [email protected]
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: BFP on underground supply
FYI,
A question from an AHJ. In many cases, we receive a dedicated
underground fire line to serve fire hydrants and the building fire
sprinkler system. (Domestic if provided through a separate line)
When this occurs, the local water authorities always require a
backflow (in an underground vault) to separate the public water
supply from the private water system.
With this approach, we do not require a backflow on the riser and
use the yard hydrant system for the forward flow testing of the
backflow.
Does anyone see an issue with this approach? If so, please advise
we can revise our procedure.
Mike Slaughter
Risk Reduction Division
Travis County Emergency Services District 2
Office: (512) 989-4531
[email protected]
On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 4:03 PM Bob Caputo
<[email protected]> wrote:
So, why would it matter where the backflow preventer is
located? NFPA is clear in the requirement to provide a
forward flow test connection. If the backflow is in a vault or
a pit, the intent is still clear. I am the current chair of
NFPA 24, and I think most members would agree this connection
is better located on the control riser – but there is no
restriction on where you place this connection. NFPA 13,
chapter 6 is a direct extract of underground installation
requirements, provided so installer/maintainers don’t even
have to purchase a copy of NFPA 24.
Are we a solution in search of a problem on this one?
Bob
<~WRD0000.jpg>
*Bob Caputo, CFPS*
/President/
*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
c:**760-908-7753
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214-349-5965 ext124
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*From:* Ed Kramer <[email protected]>
*Sent:* Friday, November 18, 2022 11:19 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] BFP on underground supply
NFPA 13 is pretty clear that some method of forward flow
testing a fire sprinkler system backflow preventer shall be
provided. If the BFP is located at the system riser (very
common in these parts), we provide the required means.
So, who is responsible for providing the means if the BFP is
located in a pit on the underground fire service, and the UG
fire service (along with the pit/BFP) is “by others”? From a
practical viewpoint, it’s easy enough for us to provide that
at our system riser, but are we required to do so? Or does
that responsibility fall on whomever installs the BFP? I’ve
not seen this addressed anywhere in bid/contract documents.
Ed Kramer
Bamford Fire
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