The annex clarifies that any object within the 18” is considered an obstruction and you are required to use the 3X or bean rule
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 4:51 PM Kevin Hall <kh...@firesprinkler.org> wrote: > Dane is correct. > > We get this question a lot through the Technical Review submissions, and > the response is pretty cut and dry. > > The three times rule does not apply to non structural members in light and > ordinary hazard occupancies and because the deflector is located above the > duct, water is able to spray on both sides, so it can be considered a > noncontinuous obstruction. No additional protection is not required. > > -Kevin > > On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 5:08 PM Greg McGahan <g...@genesisfireservices.com> > wrote: > >> With all due respect Dane - read the annex, it specifically addresses >> that issue. >> >> On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 3:42 PM Dane Long <da...@bamfordfire.com> wrote: >> >>> Anthony, >>> >>> >>> >>> I feel there might be a few sections you need to look at regarding this >>> question. >>> >>> >>> >>> For me I would start at *8.6.5.2 Obstructions to Sprinkler Discharge >>> Pattern Development.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *8.6.5.2.1.1 *Continuous or noncontinuous obstructions less than or >>> equal to 18 in. (457 mm) >>> >>> below the sprinkler deflector that prevent the pattern from fully >>> developing shall comply with >>> >>> 8.6.5.2. >>> >>> >>> >>> The section above lays the ground work for the 18in requirement >>> (8.6.5.2). Then I would look at *8.6.5.2.1.3* Minimum Distance from >>> Obstructions.* >>> >>> >>> >>> *8.6.5.2.1.4* *For light and ordinary hazard occupancies, structural >>> >>> members only shall be considered when applying the requirements >>> >>> of 8.6.5.2.1.3. >>> >>> >>> >>> IMHO Because it specifically says “structural members only shall be >>> considered” I believe the intent of this section is to allow for us to not >>> provide sprinklers on both side to a reasonable degree, meaning we’re able >>> to get water on both sides of the obstruction as long as its not a >>> structural member. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Dane Long, AET* >>> *Engineering Technician *| *Bamford Fire Sprinkler Co., Inc.* >>> P: *785.825.7710* >>> F: *785.825.0667* >>> A: *1383 W. North Street Salina, KS 67401 >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1383+W.+North+Street%C2%A0+Salina,+KS%C2%A0+67401?entry=gmail&source=g>* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Anthony Johnson <mountainfirepr...@gmail.com> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 9, 2023 2:26 PM >>> *To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers < >>> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> >>> *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Duct obstruction criteria in LH attic >>> >>> >>> >>> The 3x rule is the only one we think would apply but it only applies to >>> structural components. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> >>> Anthony Johnson >>> >>> Mountain Fire Protection >>> >>> 'Saving Lives and Valuing Property' >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 12:58 PM Taylor Schumacher < >>> tay...@sfsprinkler.com> wrote: >>> >>> When you cannot apply one of the obstruction rules, it does not mean >>> that there isn’t an obstruction. >>> >>> >>> >>> If you think about this scenario the same way you would with sprinklers >>> directly attached to a pipe, that’s where to start. Look at the 3x rule or >>> sprinklers on each side. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Taylor Schumacher* >>> >>> Security Fire Sprinkler <http://www.j-berd.com/> >>> >>> 1 Industrial Blvd | Sauk Rapids, MN 56379 >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1+Industrial+Blvd+%7C+Sauk+Rapids,+MN+56379+Office:+320?entry=gmail&source=g> >>> >>> Office: 320 >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1+Industrial+Blvd+%7C+Sauk+Rapids,+MN+56379+Office:+320?entry=gmail&source=g>.656.0847 >>> | Direct: 320.640.7050 >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* matthew.will...@ferguson.com <matthew.will...@ferguson.com> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 09, 2023 12:37 PM >>> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >>> *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Duct obstruction criteria in LH attic >>> >>> >>> >>> I believe however, the intent of the section must still be applied. >>> Water on both sides. >>> >>> Not sure in the 13 edition the location, but in the 19 it is 10.2.7.1.2. >>> >>> We are referred back to it as applicable from the 3 times section. >>> >>> >>> >>> Sprinklers spaced on opposing sides, not to exceed the max half distance. >>> >>> >>> >>> R/ >>> >>> Matt >>> >>> >>> >>> *Please rate our customer service >>> <https://survey.medallia.com/?emailsignature&fc=3539&bg=Fire%20and%20Fabrication>* >>> >>> >>> >>> *Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, CET* >>> >>> *Engineering Designer IV* >>> >>> *FERGUSON FIRE DESIGN, LLC* >>> >>> *A Wholly Owned Subsidiary of Ferguson Fire & Fabrication, LLC* >>> >>> 401 N 5th Street >>> >>> Suite 448 >>> >>> Wausau, WI 54403 >>> >>> C: 307-236-8249 >>> >>> *matthew.will...@ferguson.com <matthew.will...@ferguson.com>* >>> >>> *www.FergusonFire.com <http://www.fergusonfire.com/>* >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Anthony Johnson <mountainfirepr...@gmail.com> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 9, 2023 11:24 AM >>> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >>> *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Duct obstruction criteria in LH attic >>> >>> >>> >>> I have an elementary question but know there are varying opinions on the >>> topic. The situation is a tight unused attic space in a LH occupancy. Our >>> upright sprinkler deflector will be 3" above the ductwork. Evaluating all >>> of the obstruction criteria presented in NFPA we've essentially came to the >>> conclusion that the ductwork would not pose an obstruction but came to this >>> conclusion mainly by process of elimination. The beam-rule would not apply >>> since the ductwork is below the deflector. The 3X rule is only for >>> structural components in light and ordinary hazards and the 'wide >>> obstruction' rule would not apply since the ductwork is only 24" wide. >>> That only leaves the 'suspended or floor mounted vertical obstructions' >>> rule of 8.6.5.2.2 ('2013 ed) but it specifically mentions free standing >>> partitions, privacy curtains and "similar obstructions". I don't think >>> duct-work is a similar obstruction. I would like to have my ducks in a row >>> if this design approach should be questioned but also want to make sure I >>> have a sound design. Is our reasoning correct that essentially if the >>> sprinkler deflector is above the duct water will spray on both sides and >>> the duct would not pose as an obstruction? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> >>> Anthony Johnson >>> >>> Mountain Fire Protection >>> >>> 'Saving Lives and Valuing Property' >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________ >>> SprinklerForum mailing list: >>> >>> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________ >>> SprinklerForum mailing list: >>> >>> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Greg McGahan >> >> *Genesis Fire Services, LLC* >> >> *4912 Glover Lane. Milton, FL >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/4912+Glover+Lane.+Milton,+FL%C2%A0+32570?entry=gmail&source=g>**32570 >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/4912+Glover+Lane.+Milton,+FL%C2%A0+32570?entry=gmail&source=g>* >> >> *P- 850-637-8535* >> >> *C- 850-712-9555* >> >> _________________________________________________________ >> SprinklerForum mailing list: >> >> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org > > -- > Kevin Hall, M.Eng., P.E., ET, CWBSP, PMSFPE > Sr. Manager, Engineering and Technical Services > American Fire Sprinkler Association > > _________________________________________________________ > SprinklerForum mailing list: > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > To unsubscribe send an email to > sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org -- Thank You Brett Peters PFPS Ltd (780) 777 0568 Sent From My iPhone
_________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
