Kevin I presume this question is because of my statement below about " ...the need to eliminate fossil fuels altogether..?
My statement about superior cleanliness for TLUDs has been on this list at least a dozen times - especially from Dean and Paul Anderson. Look up what is said about the Philips stove. I'll go doing a bigger search as soon as you answer mr last request for a real cite? Ron On May 27, 2013, at 8:08 PM, "Kevin" <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Ron > ----- Original Message ----- > From: [email protected] > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 1:39 PM > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves > > Dean: > > I know you know this, but some of us are in the stove development > "business" because we want messages like yours below to also include the > words "carbon negative" Surprisingly, those stoves that can be carbon > negative seem also to have the cleanest combustion. > > # 1: Specifically, what kinds of stoves are you talking about? > > #2: Do you have any measurements that you can present to show that such > "carbon negative stoves" have cleaner combustion than other stoves which are > not "carbon negative"? > > Thanks. > > Kevin > > > Paul O's seems to be in this nice class. This is not to mention the global > need for soil improvement, the need to eliminate fossil fuels altogether, and > other benefits like low or negative annual cost that come with biochar > > I repeat that I know you know this. Some on this list don't. > > Thanks for all that you and Aprovecho are doing to advance the science of > (especially clean) stove operation. > > Ron > > From: "Dean Still" <[email protected]> > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 9:47:12 AM > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Advancement of "better" stoves > > Hi All, > > Let's remember that although burning natural gas when cooking adds CO2 to the > atmosphere and sustainably harvested biomass can be carbon neutral, the > biomass has to be completely combusted not to damage health, etc. > > Complete combustion of biomass is a goal not yet a reality. > > Best, > > Dean > > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Paul Olivier <[email protected]> wrote: > Design stoves that are functional, safe and efficient. And don't forget, to > design stoves that can be situated in modern kitchens. Getting rich people in > developed countries to use biomass stoves should be one of our big > priorities. I think that many of us grossly underestimate the power of the > tlud concept. Imagine a small tlud less than 10 inches in height; made of > high quality, long-lasting stainless steel; holding no more than about three > or four cups of wood or straw pellets; capable of putting out 2 to 3 kW of > heat over enough time to cook an average meal; elegantly contoured to match > in beauty high-end kitchen accessories. Such a stove need not cost more than > $50 US to fabricate. It would produce a beautiful blue flame that would rival > that of a bottled gas stove. It would produce a valuable biochar for farms > and gardens. It would be proudly used in London or Laos, Boston or > Bangladesh. It would appeal to rich and poor alike. > > Of course we can build cheap, tin can stoves. But why should we expect poor > people to use them, while we would never dream of doing so, except, perhaps, > on an occasional camping trip? > > Paul Olivier > > > On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 7:12 PM, mtrevor <[email protected]> wrote: > I concur with Dr Tluds points and think in particular Dr Belonio, Dr. Nurhuda > and Paul Oliver all seem to have stoves that could easily be poised to go > commercial big time. They seem to work beautifully, are physically good > looking and are close to good fuel sources. In addition they are located in > places where industrial and mechanical means of manufature exist. > Not all of the rest of the world is so fortunate. While these stoves are > relatively economical obtaining them is another issue. While a stove could be > worth $25.00 $50.00 or even maybe $100.00 having to pay $200.00 $300 or > $400.00 to obtain a sample for testing is beyond practicality. No matter what > efforts are expended tincanium and hammered tin has little appeal here. In > these day of ipads and iphones style is a major hurdle. > > Lurking in the backgound at the end of the earth. > > Michael N Trevor > Marshall Islands > > . > > From: Paul Anderson > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves > Cc: Otto Formo > Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 PM > Subject: [Stoves] Specifics about advancement of TLUD stoves Re: fan > expertise? > > Dear all, This is a different and more specific reply to Otto's message. > > I see four things that will greatly advance the position of micro-gasifier > stoves, specifically the TLUD stoves. I am working on all four of them. > > 1. Prove that stove users will accept TLUD gasifier stoves (at reasonable > price, but this is not about price.) and (with a reasonable supply chain for > appropriate fuels, but this is not about fuels) : > > We lack meaningful studies that show that TLUD stoves (when available and > with fuels available) are accepted by "typical" cookstove users in any > significant segment of the population. We need some documentation that xx > number of TLUD users (out of yy number of households that seriously tried > TLUD stoves) are still using the stoves zz percent of the time for their > cooking, and this is over time periods that are checked again and again each > few months. Comments from users should be reported. > > Start small, and do it well. The money for the bigger studies will follow > success with the small numbers. This is NOT about sales. This is about > sustained usage. > > We are working on this topic at Awamu in Uganda with the Quad TLUD stove, but > no results to report at this time. Is anyone else doing such studies? > > 2. Compilation of past results and further data collection about emissions > and efficiencies of TLUD stoves. Some TLUD have had major success. And > others "suck". Which ones and why? We seek data from the stove testing > centers. We also will do further work at Stove Camps in the coming 3 months. > > 3. Prove the capacities to produce sufficient numbers of TLUD stoves with > excellent functioning. The response must be credible for numbers of many > 10s of thousands for stoves per year. 20 tinsmiths seated in a factory is > not sufficient proof. Prof. Nurhuda has shown that metal stamping can > produce his TLUD stoves with good quality. I do not doubt that capacity > worldwide could be sufficient when demand is there, but with the goal of > creating in-country jobs, for most situations "proof" is still not in hand. > > 4. Bring the price below US$10 for the low-end products that are still > functional about emissions and efficiencies. I am working on this and I > hope to report about it at the July stove camp at Aprovecho where TLUD stoves > are a focal issue. > > Note that I did NOT add on having different TLUD stoves such as the ones with > fans like Ron is discussing. When they become available, that will be > wonderful. But then such stoves will still need to be considered regarding # > 1 and #2 and #3 above. They might be the breakthrough for gaining > acceptance, or lower emissions, or whatever. > > Paul > > Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD" > Email: [email protected] Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072 > Website: www.drtlud.com > On 5/26/2013 2:46 AM, Otto Formo wrote: > Ron > > I do not see any point in arguing with all and anybody, to try to convince > them , that gasifing of biomass are here to BE and will develop more rapidly, > than anyone ever belived. > > What about the issue of biomass as fuel? > Here are a LOT of challanges in preparation, production, handeling etc. > > Paul A and Ron, > If, "Open Source", realy means something to you, then create a group of > "belivers" and start from there. > > Thanks. > > Otto > > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3184/6358 - Release Date: 05/25/13 > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > > -- > Paul A. Olivier PhD > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong > Dalat > Vietnam > > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam) > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam) > Skype address: Xpolivier > http://www.esrla.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ >
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