Andrew: Your comments are in italics:
My own family thinks I'm crazy for wanting to tunnel from my house to the Schmidt Brewery. "That's way too expensive!" they tell me. Bollocks! It cost-effective somehow? I mean, men have already mined miles of tunnels with their bare hands 'round these parts (the rumor is that several gloved women assisted; one even supervised - the West End has always been progressive, ya know).
I'd like to outline what is involved in tunnel construction, giving my conclusion at the end.
The bedrock near the Schmidt Brewery is most likely shallow and composed of the Platteville Formation. If you want to take a peek at it, go along Shepard Road behind the Brewery and look back at the bluff. It is the hard bluff forming rock at the top of the exposed bedrock. Its engineering properties are variable. Because it is at a shallow depth, natural weathereing could in some areas have lead to the widening of natural vertical fractures in the rock (joints). Depending on the interconnection of the joints, the rock could be what is called rippable. if not it would have to be blasted. Why mention the mechanical behavior of the shallowest bedrock? The typical method of constructing a tunnel at shallow depth, say less that 50 feet, would be to construct an open cut (deep ditch) that would later filled in. One problem of constructing a tunnel under 7th Street is you would not want to use the open cut and fill method or to blast through the bedrock. Just think of the utilities in the street that lie close to the surface and the inherent problems of not distrubing them during construction.
This brings us to the most likely method of construction of a tunnel to the Schmidt plant: tunnelling. Access throuth the overlying "hard" Platteville would need to be created to the underlying "soft" St. Peter Sandstone. The St. Peter Sandstone can be excavated for short distance for small diameter tunnels with a hydraulic lance. In its most simplistic terms, a hydraulic lance is a garden hose with a pipe or nozzle at its working end. Water is sprayed at high pressureagainst the tunnel head and disaggregates the rock. You then need some sort of mucking system to remove the resultant sandy slurry from the tunnel. Needless to say, good surveying techniques must be used to keep the tunnel true so that it ends up where you want it to terminate. An these steps are just the beginning. So as your family says, for one family, "That's way too expensive." This procedure might, however, be reasonable for a large public construction project such as, say, light rail transit.
Shouldn't every town in America have a safe place to go in the event of a terrorist attack?
Depends on the type of attack. Would it work for a high grade nuclear attack made with a nuclear bomb smuggled into our country in a container shipment? Probably not. Would it protect us from a suicide terrorist mediated attack of Avian flu or SARS? Definitely not. And besides our inadequately funded health system and manner of distributing medical care invites such an attack to the extent that it threatens our national security. Would it protect us from a dirty nuclear bomb? Maybe, but not as well as a rehearsed and practiced evacuation plan and decontamination plan.
The Feds and the citizens who provoked the 9/11 attack owe it to us, really.
Are you talking about our home grown terrorist ala Timothy McVeigh or external terrorist such as Al Quida that are bent on world subjegation to their Islamic fascist ideology?
How much of the Hiawatha Line's cost was due to its tunnel? How significant would the perpetual savings be due to geothermal energy use, no snow removal, yeast and fungi production, and sales of fossils (which would be taxed heavily)? What is the smallest city in the world with an underground railway? Where is the World's First Urban Subterranean State Park? What's this I hear about lasers being used to cut Cold Spring granite? Where's the nearest laser shop? - my back's killing me. Where does Cemstone get all their sand? How much sand can a barge carry?
I don't know. Do realy want to know?
Can you point me to a 3-D map of the local geology? Could a person "C-scan" W 7th and map existing tunnels?
Geologic maps are 2-D. Contact the Minnesota Geologic Survey (part of the University of Minnesota) to find out what they have available. I am sure that, if I rummage through my files, I can find one.
How will we know what mass can be supported by tunnelled-out, ethanol-soaked ground?
First, the ethanol. I doubt there is ethanol soaked ground. Any ethanol that would be seeping into the ground, especially into unsaturated soil and bedrock such as immediately underlies the Schmidt Brewery, is immediately subject to biodegradation. There are probably some very happy bacterial there. This can be checked with soil borings or push sampling techniques. Second, the weight (not mass) that can be supported will depend on the internal support in the tunnel with a suitable factor of safety. The weight will consist of the bearing load of the overlying material and the instaneous load of traffic (i.e. large or heavy trucks) moving over the tunnel.
If a million dollars here and a million dollars there had been spent on an I-35E/I-94 tunnel, would we have made the connection by now?
My immediate impression would be that a tunnel would be difficult to construct because of inadequate depth of the Ayd Mill Road Valley. What you are suggesting might be accomplished with a further depressed roadway, which would be significantly more expensive that extending the already depressed roadway. The real question is whetheror not a city street should be used to connect a parkway (I35E) and an Expressway (I(94).
Can a single geologist stop all the Ayd Mill Road bickering?
Not unless he or she becomes a politician who understands mediation.
How many suburbanites does it take to fill the Big Dig?
I have never visited the Big Dig in Boston.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Subterr-ific! I've been looking for you, Herr Schoenberg!
My own family thinks I'm crazy for wanting to tunnel from my house to the Schmidt Brewery. "That's way too expensive!" they tell me. Bollocks! It would be worth it. Doesn't the geo-softness of the region make it Mohr cost-effective somehow? I mean, men have already mined miles of tunnels with their bare hands 'round these parts (the rumor is that several gloved women assisted; one even supervised - the West End has always been progressive, ya know).
Shouldn't every town in America have a safe place to go in the event of a terrorist attack? The Feds and the citizens who provoked the 9/11 attack owe it to us, really.
How much of the Hiawatha Line's cost was due to its tunnel? How significant would the perpetual savings be due to geothermal energy use, no snow removal, yeast and fungi production, and sales of fossils (which would be taxed heavily)? What is the smallest city in the world with an underground railway? Where is the World's First Urban Subterranean State Park? What's this I hear about lasers being used to cut Cold Spring granite? Where's the nearest laser shop? - my back's killing me. Where does Cemstone get all their sand? How much sand can a barge carry?
Can you point me to a 3-D map of the local geology? Could a person "C-scan" W 7th and map existing tunnels? How will we know what mass can be supported by tunnelled-out, ethanol-soaked ground? If a million dollars here and a million dollars there had been spent on an I-35E/I-94 tunnel, would we have made the connection by now? Can a single geologist stop all the Ayd Mill Road bickering? How many suburbanites does it take to fill the Big Dig?
Some things only a geologist can tell us...
By the power vested in me, I hereby pronounce you St. Paul's High Advisor on Geologic, Natural, and Underground Matters (SPHAGNUM). Your term expires at the end of the Cenozoic Era.
Rock on, GeoMike,
AMH Tunnel Town Randolph, Fort, & Osceola
PS Hey, whatever happened to that submarine idea anyway?
Andrew M. Hine Corporate Research Materials Laboratory 3M Center 201-1W-28 St. Paul MN 55144-1000 USA
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: (651) 733-1070 Fax: (651) 737-5335 Lab 201-W110
Mike Schoenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED] t.com> To Sent by: [email protected] [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc forum.org Subject [StPaul] Introduction 03/09/2005 08:21 PM
Hi. My name is Mike Schoenberg. I am married and have two kids. Both went to the St. Paul Public Schools. It prepared them well for the UofM. Each graduated in four years. I have lived in St. Paul in the same house since 1978. My interest is in learning about how St. Paul operates. I am concerned about where the city is going in our rapidly changing political, economic, and social environment. I have not heard anything thoughtful from either major political party (or from the the minor parties for that matter). I am a Professional Geologist who has experience working at the edge between geology and engineering. The conversation the past two days has been interesting, if not always enlightening and on topic. I'd like to hear from others about what they believe the future direction of development in St. Paul should be, say, over the next thirty years. Thanks Mike
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