Ed, thank you. This is what I was trying to ask for earlier. I'm glad Ben was
able to clarify to question.
Evan
On Sep 24, 2010, at 8:29 AM, Edward Smith wrote:
> Freddy: First of all, *thank you* for clarifying what I meant from my terse
> comments. Sometimes to get a point across, I have to lay it out there
> cut-and-dry. Yes, everything said rings true with my intentions. Hence you
> may speak for me anytime Freddy.
> Ben: Very glad to get your input and will address it as clearly and
> respectfully as I can:
> The "evasive"-ness of my opening email ties back to "to the rest of us you
> just sort of came out of nowhere to claim a leadership role". With that in
> mind:
> - "you meant you are planning to *use* Stripes in a project and you can't
> disclose the nature of that project" Precisely. Basically was some idle
> chit-chat to go along with 'Uh, yeah, I'd like to...'
> - "Maybe when you didn't speak of your qualifications, it was out of
> humility" Bingo. That along with the breadth and depth of experiences I've
> had in my career, I honestly wouldn't know where to begin. After being
> around Java and web applications for 13, going on 14, years now there's a lot
> I've seen and done. Anyone else on here remember the days before JSPs when
> you had to put HTML into the Servlet? Good times!
>
> - "maybe that was an attempt to keep from sinking further into the quicksand"
> Right again. When I perform a *leadership action* by making a stand on
> something I believe in and it somehow turns into me seeking an autocratic
> dictatorship, I'm out. Stripes has no king, Stripes needs no king. Stripes
> does need a *steward* to evolve any further than where it stands today.
>
> - "I like that you got a +1 from Melinda, who has been active on the mailing
> list for years." and "you don't seem to have been very active on the mailing
> list or IRC" are related so I will answer both right now. When I became
> Melinda's lead, she had very little experience developing with Java let alone
> Enterprise Java Web applications. As an example of my leadership style, when
> Melinda would first come to me with Stripes questions, I would encourage her
> to be the one to reach out to the Stripes community and find the answer.
> Delegating that responsibility was one of the ways to let her grow personally
> and professionally.
>
> As far as my Stripes community activity goes, yes it has been more behind the
> scenes. In 2006, Stripes easily won the web framework architectural review I
> conducted over Struts, JSF, Spring MVC, Tapestry, etc. I wrote a proposal
> for the JavaOne Call For Papers a few years ago with the goal being to
> present a Technical Session on the Stripes Framework at JavaOne. I was going
> to attend anyway, might as well spread the word on Stripes while I was there.
> The proposal was not accepted. Within four months of being at my current
> job, I *proactively* wrote up an Application Architecture Proposal document
> almost entirely centered around using Stripes instead of Struts 1.2.x which
> is what they have been using since 2002. That has started high-level
> discussions about rearchitecting the application but I am quite concerned
> about Spring MVC winning the web framework battle over Stripes because nobody
> I work with has ever heard of Stripes.
> - "What people are asking of you is just a little sales pitch. We want to
> know what you think the project needs and what you plan to do to provide
> that." This is million dollar question. I don't have a million dollar
> answer, but I'll give it a go:
> At this moment, I am a *former* Stripes user. Having such a positive
> experience as a Stripes user in the past, I would like nothing more than to
> be a happy Stripes user *in the future*. Based on that premise, there are a
> few reasons why I stepped up to the plate:
> 1. The Stripes Elders are happy with the way Stripes is today, yet recently
> several users have been on the mailing list giving the outside community
> point of view. From the outside looking in, Stripes looks outdated, falling
> behind the times, and for a lack of a better word 'fossilizing'.
>
> 2. As you said Ben, you no longer have the time or energy to provide proper
> leadership on the project. We all see that and a couple new faces have
> spoken up, taken some action, and tried to fill that leadership void. The
> effort is commended, however taking the leadership role and dividing it up
> piecemeal just won't work. Who is the Stripes community supposed to go to
> when they have an issue, an idea or suggestion, or even want to contribute?
> And who is responsible for taking all of that community input and energy and
> make something happen? Right now I can't tell you who because I have no idea.
>
> 3. By 'throwing my hat into the ring' I just wanted to start a discussion on
> the future leadership of Stripes, not a Civil War or Revolution. I was
> hoping, Ben, you would come back and say 'Nah, man. I still got this'. With
> that not being the case, I am *still* hoping someone who meets the
> qualifications and follows Brandon's advice steps up. It is safe to say that
> I would be the *last* resort, and I sense many would prefer there be no
> Project Lead at all before giving it to some guy coming out of nowhere (which
> I completely understand).
>
> 4. Melinda was too kind when she mentioned I was a 'Stripes expert'. I am
> far from it. I installed Stripes when it was version 1.4.2 and have
> basically leveraged the magical ActionBean, some @CustomValidation methods,
> and a couple basic extensions. That's it. As I have been 'watching from the
> sidelines', I know there are far more knowledgable people in the community
> than I. Not just on Stripes, but on a lot of other Java EE-related topics as
> well. I wouldn't even consider attempting to provide leadership to a project
> I don't own (i.e. Stripes) if I wasn't going to be working with highly
> talented people who knew more than I did.
>
> What does Stripes need from a leader? Evan, Remi, and Freddy all have
> mentioned specific roles and responsibilities that need to be addressed. Who
> is going to perform all those tasks? I still agree with Brandon, someone who
> has been on the *inside* rather than the *outside* should step up. As for my
> part, because I am coming at this from a user point of view (plus my
> experience working as a consultant for a Professional Services group):
>
> - Serve the needs of the client first (in this case current and future
> Stripes users)
> - However, the client is not always right and their expectations need to be
> managed accordingly
> - For those of you familiar with the Time-Cost-Quality triangle
> (http://bit.ly/aOklOy), the old saying goes there are three choices and you
> can only pick two. Open source maximizes cost (as in zero) so it comes down
> to Time or Quality. I am much in the 'get it done right' over the 'get it
> done right now' camp so for me Quality trumps Time. I perceive the Stripes
> community holds that same philosophy.
> - Initially I would do a lot of listening in order to learn how to provide
> the best possible service to the community. Over time, though, I would gain
> an understanding of the 'big picture' along with a deeper knowledge of
> Stripes and govern accordingly. This sometimes means making decisions that
> are loved by some, loathed by others, and put some on the fence. That's just
> part of being a leader, making decisions that are not 'universally accepted'
> or have 'gained consensus'. A leader cannot make everybody happy all the
> time.
> - At the same time, if someone doesn't understand why I made a certain
> decision and asks about it, I will always be more than happy to explain what
> factors went into making the decision.
> - Decisions are based upon input, and sometimes decisions are made with
> incomplete, incorrect, or out-of-date information. If I ever make a decision
> and you feel it was the wrong one, step up and voice your concern. We can
> discuss it and if I'm in the wrong I will be the first to admit it and adjust
> accordingly.
>
> Anyway, for someone who is not a natural salesman or politician, that's about
> the best I can do at this juncture.
>
> Ed
>
> Edward Smith
> Senior Software Developer
> 214-272-5225 (direct)
> esm...@peopleanswers.com
>
> PeopleAnswers®
> Better Insight. Better People.
>
> Check out our blog: blog.peopleanswers.com
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This email (including any attachments) is confidential
> and may be protected by legal privilege. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the
> information contained herein is prohibited. If you have received this
> message in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and
> then delete this message in its entirety. Thank you for your cooperation.
>
> From: Ben Gunter [mailto:gunter...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 10:07 AM
> To: Stripes Users List
> Subject: Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part
> DEUX)
>
> Ed, it seems you have put a some people off and you have the support of some
> others. I'm on the fence at the moment. My main concern is that a few of the
> things you've said seem a little bit evasive. You declined to summarize your
> qualifications as project lead. You mentioned some plans you have for Stripes
> but again declined to disclose those. That seems especially odd since any
> contributions you make will be public anyway. And then when asked to
> elaborate on how you might manage the project you again declined, citing the
> probability that further comment from you would create confusion.
>
> Now, maybe I've misunderstood. Maybe when you said you had your own plans for
> Stripes, you meant you are planning to *use* Stripes in a project and you
> can't disclose the nature of that project. Maybe when you didn't speak of
> your qualifications, it was out of humility. And on the last point, maybe
> that was an attempt to keep from sinking further into the quicksand.
>
> What I like is that you stepped forward. I like that you have used Stripes
> for years and watched it evolve. I like that you got a +1 from Melinda, who
> has been active on the mailing list for years.
>
> On the negative side, you don't seem to have been very active on the mailing
> list or IRC. Even though you have been watching the activity for a long time,
> to the rest of us you just sort of came out of nowhere to claim a leadership
> role.
>
> I admit that I no longer have the time or energy to provide proper leadership
> on this project. I think we do need someone who can coordinate things. What
> people are asking of you is just a little sales pitch. We want to know what
> you think the project needs and what you plan to do to provide that. I hope
> you'll indulge us.
>
> -Ben
>
> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Freddy Daoud <xf2...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Just my 2c, I hope this doesn't make things "worse" in terms of
> misunderstandings.
>
> >I am not interested in taking a leading role, I am interested in
> >taking *the lead*. Yes, I am aware of how this comes across and no I
> >will not apologize for it. As I have stated before, what Stripes
> >needs most is leadership, plain and simple.
>
> Personally, I was thrilled when I read Ed's comment. I did not read
> any "dictatorship" into it. All I read was that someone was willing
> to step up to the plate, stating it clearly, no two ways about it.
> I respect that very much.
>
> I agree that Stripes needs leadership. Again, I don't see this as
> a synonym of "dictatorship", nor an opposite to "consensus". What I
> do see in this is someone, Ed, who has the skill and the will to
> assume the role of Stripes lead.
>
> This does not mean to rule out other participants. But, IMHO, we
> do *need* someone that decides and makes things happen. Sure,
> it's all teamwork, but at the end of the day, when someone submits
> a patch, asks when the next release will be, asks if a feature
> belongs in the framework, and so on, there has to be *someone*
> who is *committed* to addressing and responding.
>
> It's not a one-man show. But the problem with a team of
> contributors without someone who is the lead, is that for some
> issues, everyone looks at everyone else and no one responds.
>
> This is why I applaud Ed's statement that he is willing to take
> on this responsibility for Stripes.
>
> First on the list, I think, is to plan out the release of
> Stripes 1.5.x and Stripes 1.6, and work from there.
>
> Again, just my 2c. I hope I didn't create more than resolve
> "conflict", and please also know that I don't mean to speak
> for you, Ed. I'm just expressing what I read into it, and I
> hope it rings true with your intentions. I'm pretty sure you
> didn't mean that you would become a dictator, nor that you
> wouldn't encourage teamwork and healthy discussions about
> Stripes' future.
>
> Personally, I say thanks, Ed. You have my vote.
>
> Cheers,
> Freddy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances
> and start using them to simplify application deployment and
> accelerate your shift to cloud computing.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Stripes-users mailing list
> Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Nokia and AT&T present the 2010 Calling All Innovators-North America contest
> Create new apps & games for the Nokia N8 for consumers in U.S. and Canada
> $10 million total in prizes - $4M cash, 500 devices, nearly $6M in marketing
> Develop with Nokia Qt SDK, Web Runtime, or Java and Publish to Ovi Store
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/nokia-dev2dev_______________________________________________
> Stripes-users mailing list
> Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances
and start using them to simplify application deployment and
accelerate your shift to cloud computing.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev
_______________________________________________
Stripes-users mailing list
Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
