Hi Ed,

Thanks for clarifying things. Now it doesn't look like a "on man putsch" any
more... we're progressing :P

Still, I think I need some pragmatism. I've read your email at least 5
times, looks full of good intentions, but I don't really get the
implications of "leading Stripes".

So, in terms that us coders will understand - tasks, resources, milestones,
what would be your plan for now ? I mean, we're supposed to be in a mess
(hence this thread)... what a project manager would do *now* in order to
"save the boat" ?

What do you think are the top priorities, and how do you think they should
be adressed ?

Cheers

Remi


2010/9/24 Evan Leonard <evan.leon...@gmail.com>

> Ed, thank you. This is what I was trying to ask for earlier. I'm glad Ben
> was able to clarify to question.
>
> Evan
>
> On Sep 24, 2010, at 8:29 AM, Edward Smith wrote:
>
> Freddy:  First of all, *thank you* for clarifying what I meant from my
> terse comments.  Sometimes to get a point across, I have to lay it out there
> cut-and-dry.  Yes, everything said rings true with my intentions.  Hence you
> may speak for me anytime Freddy.
> Ben:  Very glad to get your input and will address it as clearly and
> respectfully as I can:
> The "evasive"-ness of my opening email ties back to "to the rest of us you
> just sort of came out of nowhere to claim a leadership role".  With that in
> mind:
> - "you meant you are planning to *use* Stripes in a project and you can't
> disclose the nature of that project"  Precisely.  Basically was some idle
> chit-chat to go along with 'Uh, yeah, I'd like to...'
> - "Maybe when you didn't speak of your qualifications, it was out of
> humility"  Bingo.  That along with the breadth and depth of experiences I've
> had in my career, I honestly wouldn't know where to begin.  After being
> around Java and web applications for 13, going on 14, years now there's a
> lot I've seen and done.  Anyone else on here remember the days before JSPs
> when you had to put HTML into the Servlet?  Good times!
>
> - "maybe that was an attempt to keep from sinking further into the
> quicksand"  Right again.  When I perform a *leadership action* by making a
> stand on something I believe in and it somehow turns into me seeking an
> autocratic dictatorship, I'm out.  Stripes has no king, Stripes needs no
> king.  Stripes does need a *steward* to evolve any further than where it
> stands today.
>
> - "I like that you got a +1 from Melinda, who has been active on the
> mailing list for years." and "you don't seem to have been very active on the
> mailing list or IRC" are related so I will answer both right now.  When I
> became Melinda's lead, she had very little experience developing with Java
> let alone Enterprise Java Web applications.  As an example of my leadership
> style, when Melinda would first come to me with Stripes questions, I would
> encourage her to be the one to reach out to the Stripes community and find
> the answer.  Delegating that responsibility was one of the ways to let her
> grow personally and professionally.
>
> As far as my Stripes community activity goes, yes it has been more behind
> the scenes.  In 2006, Stripes easily won the web framework architectural
> review I conducted over Struts, JSF, Spring MVC, Tapestry, etc.  I wrote a
> proposal for the JavaOne Call For Papers a few years ago with the goal being
> to present a Technical Session on the Stripes Framework at JavaOne.  I was
> going to attend anyway, might as well spread the word on Stripes while I was
> there.  The proposal was not accepted.  Within four months of being at my
> current job, I *proactively* wrote up an Application Architecture Proposal
> document almost entirely centered around using Stripes instead of Struts
> 1.2.x which is what they have been using since 2002.  That has started
> high-level discussions about rearchitecting the application but I am quite
> concerned about Spring MVC winning the web framework battle over Stripes
> because nobody I work with has ever heard of Stripes.
> - "What people are asking of you is just a little sales pitch. We want to
> know what you think the project needs and what you plan to do to provide
> that."  This is million dollar question.  I don't have a million dollar
> answer, but I'll give it a go:
> At this moment, I am a *former* Stripes user.  Having such a positive
> experience as a Stripes user in the past, I would like nothing more than to
> be a happy Stripes user *in the future*.  Based on that premise, there are a
> few reasons why I stepped up to the plate:
> 1. The Stripes Elders are happy with the way Stripes is today, yet recently
> several users have been on the mailing list giving the outside community
> point of view.  From the outside looking in, Stripes looks outdated, falling
> behind the times, and for a lack of a better word 'fossilizing'.
>
> 2. As you said Ben, you no longer have the time or energy to provide proper
> leadership on the project.  We all see that and a couple new faces have
> spoken up, taken some action, and tried to fill that leadership void.  The
> effort is commended, however taking the leadership role and dividing it up
> piecemeal just won't work.  Who is the Stripes community supposed to go to
> when they have an issue, an idea or suggestion, or even want to contribute?
> And who is responsible for taking all of that community input and energy and
> make something happen?  Right now I can't tell you who because I have no
> idea.
>
> 3. By 'throwing my hat into the ring' I just wanted to start a discussion
> on the future leadership of Stripes, not a Civil War or Revolution.  I was
> hoping, Ben, you would come back and say 'Nah, man.  I still got this'.
> With that not being the case, I am *still* hoping someone who meets the
> qualifications and follows Brandon's advice steps up.  It is safe to say
> that I would be the *last* resort, and I sense many would prefer there be no
> Project Lead at all before giving it to some guy coming out of nowhere
> (which I completely understand).
>
> 4. Melinda was too kind when she mentioned I was a 'Stripes expert'.  I am
> far from it.  I installed Stripes when it was version 1.4.2 and have
> basically leveraged the magical ActionBean, some @CustomValidation methods,
> and a couple basic extensions.  That's it.  As I have been 'watching from
> the sidelines', I know there are far more knowledgable people in the
> community than I.  Not just on Stripes, but on a lot of other Java
> EE-related topics as well.  I wouldn't even consider attempting to provide
> leadership to a project I don't own (i.e. Stripes) if I wasn't going to be
> working with highly talented people who knew more than I did.
>
> What does Stripes need from a leader?  Evan, Remi, and Freddy all have
> mentioned specific roles and responsibilities that need to be addressed.
> Who is going to perform all those tasks?  I still agree with Brandon,
> someone who has been on the *inside* rather than the *outside* should step
> up.  As for my part, because I am coming at this from a user point of view
> (plus my experience working as a consultant for a Professional Services
> group):
>
> - Serve the needs of the client first (in this case current and future
> Stripes users)
> - However, the client is not always right and their expectations need to be
> managed accordingly
> - For those of you familiar with the Time-Cost-Quality triangle (
> http://bit.ly/aOklOy), the old saying goes there are three choices and you
> can only pick two.  Open source maximizes cost (as in zero) so it comes down
> to Time or Quality.  I am much in the 'get it done right' over the 'get it
> done right now' camp so for me Quality trumps Time.  I perceive the Stripes
> community holds that same philosophy.
> - Initially I would do a lot of listening in order to learn how to provide
> the best possible service to the community.  Over time, though, I would gain
> an understanding of the 'big picture' along with a deeper knowledge of
> Stripes and govern accordingly.  This sometimes means making decisions that
> are loved by some, loathed by others, and put some on the fence.  That's
> just part of being a leader, making decisions that are not 'universally
> accepted' or have 'gained consensus'.  A leader cannot make everybody happy
> all the time.
> - At the same time, if someone doesn't understand why I made a certain
> decision and asks about it, I will always be more than happy to explain what
> factors went into making the decision.
> - Decisions are based upon input, and sometimes decisions are made with
> incomplete, incorrect, or out-of-date information.  If I ever make a
> decision and you feel it was the wrong one, step up and voice your concern.
> We can discuss it and if I'm in the wrong I will be the first to admit it
> and adjust accordingly.
>
> Anyway, for someone who is not a natural salesman or politician, that's
> about the best I can do at this juncture.
>
> Ed
>
> *Edward Smith*
> *Senior Software Developer*
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>
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> *From:* Ben Gunter [mailto:gunter...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 23, 2010 10:07 AM
> *To:* Stripes Users List
> *Subject:* Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future...
> Part DEUX)
>
>
> Ed, it seems you have put a some people off and you have the support of
> some others. I'm on the fence at the moment. My main concern is that a few
> of the things you've said seem a little bit evasive. You declined to
> summarize your qualifications as project lead. You mentioned some plans you
> have for Stripes but again declined to disclose those. That seems especially
> odd since any contributions you make will be public anyway. And then when
> asked to elaborate on how you might manage the project you again declined,
> citing the probability that further comment from you would create confusion.
>
> Now, maybe I've misunderstood. Maybe when you said you had your own plans
> for Stripes, you meant you are planning to *use* Stripes in a project and
> you can't disclose the nature of that project. Maybe when you didn't speak
> of your qualifications, it was out of humility. And on the last point, maybe
> that was an attempt to keep from sinking further into the quicksand.
>
> What I like is that you stepped forward. I like that you have used Stripes
> for years and watched it evolve. I like that you got a +1 from Melinda, who
> has been active on the mailing list for years.
>
> On the negative side, you don't seem to have been very active on the
> mailing list or IRC. Even though you have been watching the activity for a
> long time, to the rest of us you just sort of came out of nowhere to claim a
> leadership role.
>
> I admit that I no longer have the time or energy to provide proper
> leadership on this project. I think we do need someone who can coordinate
> things. What people are asking of you is just a little sales pitch. We want
> to know what you think the project needs and what you plan to do to provide
> that. I hope you'll indulge us.
>
> -Ben
> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Freddy Daoud <xf2...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Just my 2c, I hope this doesn't make things "worse" in terms of
> misunderstandings.
>
>
> >I am not interested in taking a leading role, I am interested in
> >taking *the lead*.  Yes, I am aware of how this comes across and no I
> >will not apologize for it.  As I have stated before, what Stripes
> >needs most is leadership, plain and simple.
> Personally, I was thrilled when I read Ed's comment. I did not read
> any "dictatorship" into it. All I read was that someone was willing
> to step up to the plate, stating it clearly, no two ways about it.
> I respect that very much.
>
> I agree that Stripes needs leadership. Again, I don't see this as
> a synonym of "dictatorship", nor an opposite to "consensus". What I
> do see in this is someone, Ed, who has the skill and the will to
> assume the role of Stripes lead.
>
> This does not mean to rule out other participants. But, IMHO, we
> do *need* someone that decides and makes things happen. Sure,
> it's all teamwork, but at the end of the day, when someone submits
> a patch, asks when the next release will be, asks if a feature
> belongs in the framework, and so on, there has to be *someone*
> who is *committed* to addressing and responding.
>
> It's not a one-man show. But the problem with a team of
> contributors without someone who is the lead, is that for some
> issues, everyone looks at everyone else and no one responds.
>
> This is why I applaud Ed's statement that he is willing to take
> on this responsibility for Stripes.
>
> First on the list, I think, is to plan out the release of
> Stripes 1.5.x and Stripes 1.6, and work from there.
>
> Again, just my 2c. I hope I didn't create more than resolve
> "conflict", and please also know that I don't mean to speak
> for you, Ed. I'm just expressing what I read into it, and I
> hope it rings true with your intentions. I'm pretty sure you
> didn't mean that you would become a dictator, nor that you
> wouldn't encourage teamwork and healthy discussions about
> Stripes' future.
>
> Personally, I say thanks, Ed. You have my vote.
>
> Cheers,
> Freddy
>
>
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