1. NetDynamics is alive and well, see: http://developer.iplanet.com/tech/appserver/framework/index.jsp They have a nice sample app as well. But since I Planet has a bad rap, so does the Sun framework.
2. .NET can be improved via a MVC framework, Maverick. (most of you know of Maverick as a Struts competitor) http://mavnet.sourceforge.net/ There are lots of .NET versions on sf.net of Jakarta type tools for .net (Like JUnit, etc.), just search sf.net If your goal is to generate profit, M$ looks good (they are inexpensive and productive). A neat feature of .NET is webForms, they are neat. Also, C# is a ECMA standard and here is the open source version: http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/07/22/020722hnoreilly.xml And most important, MS is MUCH cheaper than BEA or IBM J2EE servers. (Sun does not care about this. Sun is interested in selling $500,000 SlowLaris machines that are slower sometimes than $2,000 Linux machines. See tpc.org.) 3. These people claimed that they are the reference implementation of Java Server Faces (and I mentioned it to the JSR and now they backed of a bit, but I suspect that they have something to do with Sun on JSF) http://www.qbizm.cz/newsletter.html ( I looked at it and was disappointed so I as well wrote a letter to the JSR for what it's worth. My point was the same, Struts is more productive.) 4. Corporate developers need GUI IDE. Things that expand the tag in JSP. Things that bind text fields to Bean. IBM is one IDE that does most of this. However, commercial developers, need to be able to get to the code. It is possible to do both. <RANT a. Worst part of J2EE is EJB, not Java Server Faces. Look at M$ ADO, it is so much faster and easier. b. IMHO Sun is a HW company and they have oversold their <OPINION>slow</> HW. I think they will go the way of Digital, Data General, MIPS, etc. and fade away. Let Sun go out of business, we will take the licks, and then compete. This IMHO is good for Java, Java without SUN (we have IBM VM, Jikes, open source Java, many Java alternatives). This would allow Java to compete on SW. (and anything that was meant to sell more HW, such as EJB or the web server + app server + EJB server concept goes out the door, Tomcat or Resin, etc can do all 3 just fine. I found EJB limits the number of concurrent users you can have per box severely compared to other DAO implementations). c. I have urged my clients to stop using SUN VM and use the faster IBM VM. (Sun has GC and other issues under load. There are lots of faster VMs, like JRockit or TowerJ) My clients, some of them quite large are leaving Sun HW and Sun Java to Linux and IBM VM. Other example is the Apple Java on OS X. </RANT> <LOOKS LIKE SALES PITCH BUT ITS NOT> I. I think .NET is better than J2EE. However, open source is better than .NET. II. I have tried to create a competitor to ADO, using a DAO design at http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/basicportal/src_05d/basicPort al/src/org/apache/commons/DAO/ (basicDAO) Idea is that you can implement a DAO interfaces using JDO, EJB (if you are new to J2EE, people first try EJB on their first J2EE project, then never again), RowSet, OJB, or any other way. This way, it is easy to change how your DAO is implemented. (my implementation uses Disconnected RowSet) III. Still the best practice, better than .NET is to use Struts, with JSTL, with Tiles and with DAO interfaces. I tried to document best practices for web site development and implement those in code at basicPortal.sf.net. (it uses for example declarative security and has verticals samples) Feel free to contribute to free and open source "best practices" for web development. </LOOKS LIKE SALES PITCH BUT ITS NOT> <ANALOGY> To me this is similar to this: Oracle is more complex and more expensive than MS SQL. So M$ SQL is better. However OpenSource PostgreSQL is better and cheaper than M$SQL. J2EE is more complex and expensive than J2EE (IBM, BEA, EJB). So .Net is better. However, OpenSource Struts + JSTL is better and more productive than .NET. Or Windows vs Linux. Problem is that managers are scared of Linux and managers are scared of Open Source. http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/case_for_business.php </ANALOGY> My conclusion: If .NET or C# or anything becomes more prodctive than Struts with DAO, I will switch. I chase profit, and profit to me is showing clients how they can develop fast and productive for very low cost, and operate high volume at low cost. Open Source beats .NET. However is there is more high end consulting in .NET... I have to switch. Enjoy the gasoline, Vic "Struts mentor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] "James Higginbotham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I have to agree with your assessment: Struts is a fabulous framework, and now we need a real application development environment to sit on top of it. Kudos to all those writing graphical interfaces to struts, but most of them are just GUI panels on top of the config files. I saw one (can't recall the name) that was commercial and offered page flow mgmt as well - nice addition, but still not where I want to be. My preferred way of working would be simliar to the old days of NetDynamics (before Sun bought them and closed them up - yeah, yeah, became part of iPlanet - whatever!). Define your project, define your datasource(s), define your pages, define your page fields, bind the data fields from your sources to your page fields. Its sort of like Powerbuilder or M$ tools, but would use the appropriate design patterns. NetD wrote their own app server, since j2ee wasn't out until they were bought by Sun, and servlets were just something cute. Toward the end, they started to support EJB 1.0 and even allowed your page fields to bind to EJB methods (!) rather than to your datasource - viola! Instant data binding to your business methods. They offered page templates (before JSP) with the option of diving into the action and page code to fix things, and offered many ways for most sites (esp intranets that need to publish data quickly) to get going very fast. Now, can this fix everything? No! Can this get rid of your expense developers? No! There are still hard problems to solve, and right/wrong ways to do things.. Can this help your developers spend less time messing with config files, page workflows (wizards, etc), and simple data binding tasks and more time working on the application at hand? I believe so.. Oh, and if there is someone out there who is writing, has written, or intends to write something like this - contact me, I really would like to help or be a beta tester! Enjoy the weekend! James > -----Original Message----- > From: Elderclei R Reami [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:36 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments > > > Hi, > > I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a > great experience on how to do and not to do things. This > list has been of great help, as well. > > Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me, > because it's just a view someone that needs > to be productive. > > I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework > and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very > much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter > of point and click. First impression: "that's what I > need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill' > cycles". Graphical components do keep state during calls, > integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like > Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn > and use. > > About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools, > but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts > has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to > be made easier to use, what means: GUI > development. I've seen some options: "Eclipse+EasyStruts", > StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none > of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are > more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet. > > Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: > M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than > Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB > app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I > mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach > is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$ > approach is "sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit". > > I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the > tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make > programming UI interface much easier than Struts. > > Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get > home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and > online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :) > > Cheers, > Elderclei R Reami > Vertis Tecnologia > +55 11 3887-0835 > www.vertisnet.com.br > > > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > <mailto:struts-user-> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > For > additional commands, > e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
