Todd- Certainly the fuel will have to meet ASTM standards. This will require some fine tuning of the process but I believe that is achievable. Others in this group may have some input on that matter. I still question whether fuel produced not for sale will be required to be registered with the EPA.
I am unfamiliar with Tier I & Tier II Health Affects studies. If this is the same as Material Safety Data Sheets I think that again is an issue concerning the sale of product. Of course we will have to make sure that the product is safe. Certainly it will be safer than petrodiesel. In my opinion, for what it is worth, this whole issue rests on the lynchpin of sales of product. Since we will be using WVO, I doubt that over supply will ever be an issue here. Perhaps in other places it will be. In my local research, the amount of WVO available from restaurants is approximately 70% of the amount of diesel being consumed by city government. Could change, I don't think so. As for the waste hauler, you may have a point. That could perhaps be construed as a competitive intrusion into the marketplace by a government entity. On the other hand, this is a waste recycling issue and there are ample illustrations of goverment competing in this area. Garbage collection is one that comes to mind. In Eufaula, there is municipal and private company collection. I know this to be true in many areas. Thanks for staying with me on this. You ask hard questions (the best kind) and I will need to cover my bases on this. Much still to find out. Bill C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > Bill, > > Okay. So the municipality registers their home brew with the EPA. > What are they going to register it as? Are government agencies > somehow exempt from Tier I and or Tier II Health Affects studies? > If not, are they going to conduct them out of pocket? If they are > exempt it would come as an eye opener. > > Imagine a tractor trailer running on fuel that has to meet EPA > Health Affects requirements, side by side on the interstate with > a city or state DOT truck whose fuel doesen't have to meet any > Health Affects requirements. That should seem pretty fishy to > just about anyone and bit unrealistic. > > So then what? Does the municipality or state shell out the > membership and production fees to the NBB in order to gain access > to the Health Affects data? Or does the NBB wave membership and > production fees for city, state and federal governments? > > Which brings to question, "What is the feedstock being used by > the government producer?" If it's not soybean oil, which it > almost certainly wouldn't be, you're not going to find too many > of the NBB soy oriented voting members too terribly pleased about > the idea of waving fees. > > Who knows. Perhaps this exemption has already been constructed by > those who originally worked with the EPA on the Health Affects > access issue. Or maybe not. > > Then there's the matter of the government producer mandatorily > meeting ASTM spec. Does a government agency get to put less than > ASTM spec fuel in fuel tanks which the public owns? I doubt it. > > And then what does the government do if they find out that they > have too much fuel for their own use as a result of too much > feedstock being available? Do they only service select > restaurants? There goes a "bias" or "favoritism" charge before > city council before you can blink. > > And what of the waste hauler who now is losing clientele to the > government? There's a "competion" complaint before the first drop > is poured. > > Seems like there are several months of legal wrangling that > you're going to have to go through before you get one step beyond > concept and into the construction phase. In the interim? Start > prototyping an ASTM spec process that is easily sizeable to any > given need. Hopefully that will be ready somewhere along the same > time frame that all the attornies get done playing with the > matter. > > Todd Swearingen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > Todd- I have considered your points of contention since last > night and also > > did some research today. > > > > As to your first point, let me stress that this production is > by the > > municipality strictly for use by the municipality within the > limits of the > > municipality. No sale of product would ever transpire. I > talked with people > > from USDOT, Alabama DOT and Alabama DOR. All said that they > knew of no > > reason why we could not do this. I was unable to reach the > regional person > > with the EPA. > > > > I don't quite understand your second point (thick headed) but > this is what I > > think may apply. I believe that the intent of that language is > to tax > > vehicles which could normally be expected to make regular use > of state and > > federal roads. I certainly could be wrong about that, but > again, none of the > > agencies I spoke with seemed to think it was a problem. The bit > of reading I > > did on the regulations focused on the sale and distribution of > fuel with no > > mention of production for in house use. > > > > Your third point is well made, however, I know something about > these kinds > > of laws. They are in place to prevent government agencies from > competeing > > with private businesses in the marketplace. There is no law > that I am aware > > of that prohibits these agencies from producing any type of > goods or > > services for their own consumption. I don't pretend that local > businesses > > who have enjoyed the business that they receive from the city > will be glad. > > But, the goverment should do what is best for the public > interest. > > > > Finally, the only thing I can say to the commercial biodiesel > producer is > > that there is no profit involved. Taxes paid by the government > to the > > government is trading paper and thus inefficient. Also those > taxes will come > > out of the public coffers. I am pretty sure that at least the > public will > > support this idea. Much easier to get public support in a small > community. > > > > I understand your frustration with lawyers and bureaucrats > getting their 2 > > cents in (or out), but I can't let that deter me in this > attempt. Maybe > > someone in the right place will do the right thing. > > > > Bill C. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:27 PM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > While you have hit upon what might appear to be a reasonableo > > > loophole in the matter, there remain several points of > > > contention. > > > > > > For a moment consider that I might be a very bitter > commercial > > > biodiesel manufacturer, extremely angry at the manner in > which > > > the NBB/soy councils are attempting to get their checkoff > dollars > > > back after they've already spent them once. Surely you don't > > > believe that someone such as this would let a manufacturing > > > scenario such as you present go unchallenged, simply because > the > > > state or municipality is road tax exempt? > > > > > > Consider the EPA's definition of "in commerce" as being > on-road > > > use. Not brief use of agriculturally exempt dyed fuel, such > as > > > hauling a tractor to a harvest site, but non-dyed commercial > > > grade fuel. It's the exact same fuel whether it's taxed or > not > > > and whether it's in a state DOT truck, a privately owned > tractor > > > trailer or a Volkswagen Golf. > > > > > > Also consider for a moment from where these tax exempt > entities > > > have been previously accessing their fuel - outside vendors. > > > There are arenas full of ordinances and statutes governing > the > > > acquisition of supplies and competing with commercial > interests. > > > > > > Now try and explain to the miffed commercial biodiesel > producer > > > why the state or municipality should be exempt from the same > > > Health Affects data requirements that he or she must adhere > > > to....Same roads. Same air. Same quality of emissions. Which > > > brings a soul directly to the off-road exemption, which will > at > > > some point cease to exist due to the very same arguement. > > > > > > Too many lawyers, too many bureaucrats and too many people > > > serving self-interests inevitably screw up anything > worthwhile. > > > > > > Todd Swearingen > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > Todd- Early on in my ivestigation of biodiesel (relative to > the > > > total time I > > > > have spent) I checked with the municipality here and found > that > > > they are > > > > exempt from state and federal fuel taxes. Same for schools. > My > > > question here > > > > is if a municipality would be required to register thier > fuel > > > if they > > > > produce it themselves and use it to operate their own > > > equipment? I make the > > > > assumption that apart from the chemical inputs, there will > be > > > no hazardous > > > > by-products. If chemicals which may be obtained on the open > > > market are > > > > properly handled, what other concern does the EPA have in > this > > > matter? > > > > > > > > Bill C. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:04 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own > fuel > > > for > > > > > their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that > may > > > apply. > > > > > And there may not be anything stopping anyone from > producing > > > > > their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save > for > > > the > > > > > IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection > of > > > road > > > > > taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - > > > > > presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in > the > > > > > arse on the matter. > > > > > > > > > > But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the > first > > > drop > > > > > for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy > > > access to > > > > > Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, > conducting > > > their > > > > > own studies or partnering with an entity that already has > > > legal > > > > > access to the data. > > > > > > > > > > That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. > And > > > pretty > > > > > much what scotches it for many people who would > ordinarily > > > move > > > > > into higher volumes of manufacture within their own > > > communities. > > > > > > > > > > Todd Swearingen > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean > councils > > > have > > > > > put on paper. > > > > > > I would be interested in seeing what legislation or > rules > > > > > apply. Would > > > > > > appreciate directions to access that info (if > available). > > > One > > > > > loophole I > > > > > > hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that > entities > > > refine > > > > > their own > > > > > > fuel, not produce commercially. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill C. > > > > > > > > > > > > .----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:24 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's rather a hopeful thought...that an Audobon/NBB > > > board > > > > > > > member could persuade the EPA and the soybean > councils to > > > > > make a > > > > > > > loophole in the matrimonial papers they formulated in > > > order > > > > > to > > > > > > > accomodate micro-regional manufacture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't get me wrong. It would be wonderful if they > would. > > > But > > > > > that > > > > > > > certainly hasn't been the stance of either up to this > > > point. > > > > > And > > > > > > > it's rather difficult to imagine that they could even > if > > > they > > > > > > > wanted to, as the general rule in this country is > "equal > > > > > > > protection under the law." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which also means equal enforcement, prosecution and > > > > > > > persecution.... meaning that the rules are to be > applied > > > > > equally > > > > > > > to everyone and that exceptions are perceived as the > > > > > proverbial > > > > > > > pox - no matter how beneficial they prove. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One can always hope. But if I were you, I would be > > > > > formulating a > > > > > > > backup plan well before I put all my eggs in that > basket. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Todd Swearingen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:09 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ken & others- First I would like to thank all of > you > > > for > > > > > your > > > > > > > help & your > > > > > > > > prompt replies. I thought it might be useful for me > to > > > > > describe > > > > > > > what I have > > > > > > > > in mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the missions we would like to undertake is > to > > > > > > > demonstrate the > > > > > > > > effectiveness of biodiesel as a fuel to the local > > > community > > > > > and > > > > > > > government. > > > > > > > > The quality of my fuel is important. While energy > > > > > (electricity) > > > > > > > is cheap > > > > > > > > here, cost is very important, hence my desire to > use > > > solar > > > > > as a > > > > > > > heat source > > > > > > > > when practical. I believe that WVO can be preheated > in > > > a > > > > > pcv > > > > > > > pipe grid using > > > > > > > > the sun. When painted black it is less suseptible > to > > > UV. > > > > > Not > > > > > > > along term > > > > > > > > solution but will do for now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After we are comfortable with our process, we > intend to > > > > > > > convince the City of > > > > > > > > Eufaula to have the Recycling Dept. collect all > WVO > > > > > produced > > > > > > > locally (not > > > > > > > > currently doing this) and produce their own clean > fuel. > > > I > > > > > know > > > > > > > other cities > > > > > > > > in USA are producing biodiesel but none as small as > us > > > > > > > (15,000). Most > > > > > > > > biodiesel info I have seen is geared either to > large > > > > > capacity > > > > > > > production or > > > > > > > > individual and farm production. Once we have > coverted > > > our > > > > > own > > > > > > > city, we will > > > > > > > > try to convince other small communties in Alabama > and > > > > > > > eventually the South > > > > > > > > East to do the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Somebody recently made referrence to the EPA and > their > > > > > > > discouragement of > > > > > > > > small biodiesel prodution in an e-mail on this > list. I > > > am > > > > > > > unfamiliar with > > > > > > > > this but don't doubt it. Ron Dodson (neat guy and > a > > > very > > > > > > > creative thinker) > > > > > > > > is the head of Audubon International. That is the > group > > > we > > > > > are > > > > > > > doing this > > > > > > > > with. Ron also sits on the National Biodiesel > Board. We > > > can > > > > > > > probably get > > > > > > > > some support for this idea through him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill C. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 6:43 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Next question. What problems might I encounter > using > > > > > > > > > >anhydrous ethanol as opposed to methanol as a > > > reactant > > > > > > > > > >in this process? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe the first step involves mostly > > > esterification > > > > > but > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > some transesterification. I don't know how much > > > you're > > > > > > > > > relying on the glycerine to fall out of the > reaction, > > > but > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > won't leave the solution as readily or as > completely > > > when > > > > > > > > > ethanol is used. Also, you have to use more > ethanol, > > > > > > > > > of course, since the molecular weight is greater > than > > > for > > > > > > > > > methanol (ratio 46 to 32). If you want to > continue > > > with > > > > > > > > > ethanol in the 2nd step, which is PURELY > > > > > transesterification, > > > > > > > > > the problem with the glycerine failing to > separate > > > from > > > > > > > > > the biodiesel can become quite bothersome, > > > particularly > > > > > > > > > with any water in there, or free fatty acids > above > > > 1%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > > > > > > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" > messages > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > list address. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! 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