Hi Keith Alex Chris
My 83 model Yamaha has a rubber seal at metering pump and every body know that how BD react with rubber. 1983 model was still using rubber material for a seal unlike 1990 model Yamaha dio used by Chris or tricycle motor that tried BD as a lube oil they are not experiencing any bleeding at metering pump. I stop mixing BD for 2T oil in my metering pump because of incompatability of two materials one is ester base and another is mineral base. I used premix at gas tank 1:20 proportion. And I'm looking for replacement part of metering seal that is not rubber as to date I cannot find that seal that will fit the 19983 model Yamaha which 20 years old piece of equipment. With regard to alex claim all I can say is that BD will work as lube oil for 2 stroke gasoline engine considering the potential o reducing smoke emission and cheap price of producing BD. Folks at rural or even at metro manila used the recycle mineral oil because it is cheap compared to price of 2T lube oil or senbel bio 2T oil, it is lower than 20-30 % market value of present commercial 2T oil. Just imagine a 20-30 % saving for poor tricycle driver is big for them. If BD will be available for them at the same price of recycle mineral oil who will used the recycle mineral oil that produce a trail of smoke on the road. If poor tricycle driver will be a given choice to select between BD and recycle mineral oil. I guess the outcome will be obvious. Home brewer like me is not discourage to the claim of alex and time will come that BD can be accepted as a lube oil either pure or blended with ester-based additives. Best wishes frank -----Original Message----- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:57 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine Hi Aleks I think your tests have established a few things but I'm not sure how useful it is. You've established what doesn't work with using biodiesel as 2T oil, but I don't think you can extrapolate from these tests that biodiesel doesn't work as 2T oil. Obviously it does work, as more and more list members are reporting, though without long-term results yet, but also without any reports of failures. What doesn't work, then, according to your tests, is using biodiesel at the OEM recommended rate for 2T oil (50:1 or 40:1) at full engine stress (WOT) and high heat (starting with a cold engine?) under test, not road, conditions. What also apparently doesn't work is a commercial company's use of biodiesel with a viscosifier, whatever that may be, as 2T oil, I suppose also at the OEM spec rate, but I think we'd need more detail on that to conclude anything much from it. If it's less viscous, why use the OEM rate? The viscosity issue has been discussed here before, and a number of people using biodiesel as 2T oil double the OEM rate, mostly to 20:1. Chris's idea of not pre-mixing it but letting the oil metering pump do the work and compensate sounds like it could be a better approach. But again, supplying only the OEM recommended rate probably wouldn't be enough for that to work well. Maybe you'll say that the tests do match road conditions, citing a 125cc "Skylab" carrying 20 people up a mountain in the Philippines at full throttle, but that's not normal use, it's not even rough use, it's abuse - that motor is not going to last too long anyway, no matter what oil you put in it. The use of recycled used motor oil in 2-strokes is a well-known problem, especially in the Philippines (I think there have been UNEP reports on it), and if this work can help to solve that problem, great, well done. But I don't think it's very transferrable to normal road use by commuters who own their machines, rather than rent-a-drivers who overload and don't have to care. It's relevant of course, but I doubt it can be directly applied. What I've been trying to do with this issue (for a long time) is to encourage cautious experiment and fend off scare stories of broken motors that come without any detail from which something might be learnt, or without any substantiation at all, not even any evidence that it was the biodiesel that caused the problem. We need to find out how best to use biodiesel as 2-stroke oil, as it's apparent that it can be used. If you're seeing any resistance to using Senbel's Bio 2T or other such products, it would be because they're not a solution for homebrewers, you have to buy them. If we find a good homebrew solution, next would be biodiesel and ethanol, and we'll have a biofuels answer for 2-strokes that's accessible to anybody. We now have a bunch of early reports that it works, plus scare stories, plus your viscosifier report (which tells us little), and your test results replicating abusive conditions, which set a limit, but the limit is too high. What would a more realistic limit be, reflecting normal use plus a reasonable safety margin? I don't think I agree with this assessment: >In the case of Frank, he >is mixing 2T mineral oil with biodiesel since the viscosity of 2T is >58~60 mm"/s at 40 C while biodiesel is 3.5~5.0 mm"/s at 40 C which is >far too thin for auto lube use which in effect will flow more as >compared to the more viscous 2T oils. This is why he is experiencing >bleeding when using pure biodiesel in the auto lube system or may also >be experiencing elastomer incompatibility with biodiesel. It's more likely to be elastomer incompatibility, I was wondering why Frank didn't just change the seal rather than mix with ordinary 2T oil. If the problem persists with a resistant seal, then think of something else, such as mixing. Best wishes Keith >Hi Keith, > >The use of biodiesel as 2T replacement was first used by a group when >they first attempted to sell this as a 2T replacement for tricycle use. >They bought their supply from Senbel and added a viscosifier to meet the >2T viscosity range and repackaged this as their product and sold it at >several places outside Manila. Several pistons seizures were reported >and they were forced to pull this out of the market and have stopped >selling ever since. Senbel decided to developed their own bio 2T >formulations and tested several until they came up with the right >formulation before this was introduced in the market owing to the >experience of their buyers. They have remained as the only supplier of >Bio 2T in the market and encountered resistance in the beginning because >it was thought to be the same product. The Technological University of >the Philippines (TUP) also tried biodiesel as 2T substitute and got >similar results. Test for diesel or biodiesel lubricity as fuel uses >either the HFRR or BOCLE methods using a special machine that simulates >injection pump loading conditions, one measuring wear scar on a plate, >the other using a load equivalent to weight. For 2T lubricity tests, a >ratio of 50:1 is used, the engine a Honda AF-27 type (SK 50MM) is >directly coupled (no transmission) to a dyno and is fully loaded at wide >open throttle (WOT) at 4000 rpm and the cooling fan is shut to bring >the plug gasket temperature to 200 Centigrade at which point torque >load is measured then at 300 C and again load is measured. This is the >JASO M340 test method. The fan is then switched on and the engine is >then allowed to cool while running and brought down to normal >temperatures. The engine is then taken apart and the piston and liner >are the examined for wear, scuffing, or other signs of lubricity >breakdown. The heaviest full load UP test was on a Kawasaki 125cc >mounted on a chassis dyno with gear on third and loaded at WOT and run >for five minutes except that the ratio was at 40:1 To ensure accurate >ratio of the fuel to lubricant, this was pre-mixed with the auto lube >disconnected. By the way, to control smoke emissions from 2T >motorcycles and ensure correct fuel oil ratios , only pre-mixed is >allowed to be sold in India by the government. In the case of Frank, he >is mixing 2T mineral oil with biodiesel since the viscosity of 2T is >58~60 mm"/s at 40 C while biodiesel is 3.5~5.0 mm"/s at 40 C which is >far too thin for auto lube use which in effect will flow more as >compared to the more viscous 2T oils. This is why he is experiencing >bleeding when using pure biodiesel in the auto lube system or may also >be experiencing elastomer incompatibility with biodiesel. Bio 2T has >the same viscosity range as with other mineral or synthetic 2T oils. The >Philippine government is now using the TUP for these tests to qualify >all 2T products in the market before these can be sold because of the >TUP and UP experience. The University of the Philippines had just >concluded their 2 year study at a cost of P1,500,000 ($30,000 US). TUP >by the way is tied with a Japanese University and have been doing >similar research on the use of coco based petroleum substitutes and have >been testing several biodiesel and 2T products since 1999. Many of >their test were done in Japan. As of now, there is only the Senbel Bio >2T in the market though I understand that there are now attempts by a >group to introduce 2T from palm oil. I still have not seen it. > >One of the tests at UP simulated a load at 4000 rpm WOT on fourth gear. >A standard tricycle with engine sizes ranging 100cc~125cc can carry on >a regular trip going up a mountain road a load of as many as eight >passengers which includes a side car and is expected to run on a >continuous full throttle load for around five minutes. In one area, they >are known to carry up to 20 passengers that ride on a planks strapped to >the frame of a motorcycle like a balancing act. These are fondly called >Skylabs over here. So you can just imagine the load. A solo or tandem >rider should not pose a problem since the load is not excessive and this >I believe is Frank's application unless he has a sidecar on the >motorcycle. Next week, tests will be conducted on several 2T products >based on crude coconut oil (CNO) and other new formulations from coconut >& vegetable sources as required by the Dept. of Energy. The JASO test >protocol shall be applied to all 2T products but will start with the >vegetable based products. Also, from the field reports that have been >gathered, rampant use of discarded motor oil has been the practice in >the Philippines as with India and Pakistan. Several users have tried to >mix the Bio 2T with these oils including mineral based 2Ts and have >reported gel formation. There seems to be a reaction when Bio 2T is >mixed with mineral and used oils. There may be some chemical reactions >either with the formulation on the mineral 2T , the acids and other >contaminants in the used oils, or with water contamination in the auto >lube system since handling is always a problem among tricycle drivers. >These are now being investigated. Majority of drivers don't own the >units but just drive them. This is why many resort to using discarded >engine oils that are made to stand so that the top is only used as >sediments settle in the bottom. They are usually just given away since >disposal of used oil is a problem. This is also what was found in the UP >study which may be released by the Department of Science and Technology >by mid December. Frank is from the Philippines and understands this >practice. This is why there was a move to phase out 2T motorcycles >around a year and a half ago until the government became aware of the >Bio 2T's performance over mineral based oils because of the UP and TUP >experiences. Their worry now is the failure of inferior formulations as >reported by TUP that could give the program a black eye since they see >Bio 2T as a way of allowing the continued use of 2T motorcycles. Also, >the University of Colorado is now developing and testing the >retrofitting of the Orbital Engine technology for use in tricycles. They >have two units shipped from the Philippines and are now doing the R & D. >Their problem is still the lubricant which they have to inject in the >lower part (crankcase) and which also has to come out of the pipe and >using the Bio 2T looks very promising. By the way, I am involved in all >of the testing by both Universities, the Department of Energy, and the >Department of Science and Technology which include the Biodiesel >program. I can keep you posted on the developments as they unfold. > >Regards, > >Alex > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Hi Alex > > > > >Frank, > > > > > >Senbel has two products made from coconut for vehicle use. Estrol > > >Biodiesel and Estrol 2T which come from the same coconut base but are > > >completely different products. The Bio 2T is cheaper than any of the > > >petroleum based product in the market. You might be confusing the > > >Biodiesel for the 2T. This will not work. Some groups have tried using > > >Biodiesel as a 2T replacement and have damaged their engines. > > > > And some groups have tried using biodiesel as a 2T replacement and > > have not damaged their engines. We need to know just what damages > > engines and what doesn't. I don't think sweeping statements on either > > side will serve - whether do it it works just fine or don't do it > > you'll wreck your engine. Please post more information about these > > tests, just how they were conducted, who by and on behalf of whom. I > > think previously you said there was only damage at maximum stress? > > > > >Biodiesel > > >does not have the lubricity needed for 2 stroke use. It's a diesel > > >extender and a replacement at the same time. The formulation of the Bio > > >2T is different though the initial process is the same. What's even more > > >evident with Biosiesel is the viscosity which is so much thinner than > > >the Bio 2T and this is why you had to resort to mixing this with mineral > > >based 2T. The Bio 2T can be used straight in your autolube system though > > >adjusting the autolube to give a 30~40:1 ratio would significantly > > >reduce visible smoke and gaseous emissions. The UP NCTS test > > > > What's that mean please? > > > > More detail please Alex. > > > > Best > > > > Keith > > > > >was based > > >on a pre-mixed ratio of 40:1 and the autolube was disconnected. > > > > > >Alex > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > > I'm glad for your response regarding estrol brand bio 2T oil but > > when I > > > > inquire further as to what type of oil they are using for this bio 2T > > > > they said that it is a coconut oil and the process is esterification > > > > process by converting the virgin oil (SVO) to biodiesel or now biolube > > > > oil. I'm glad they are producing this bio 2T but the price per > > liter is > > > > too high compared to price conventional 2T oil (petro based oil). > > > > Biodiesel/biolube oil should not cost that much considering the > > > > production cost and simplicity of process all is need are lot of > > > > patience and caring to produce good quality biodiesel/biolube oil. > > Well > > > > I'm encourage again to go deeper on this task to bring biolube oil to > > > > common people who used motorcycle as a basic mode of transportation on > > > > rural areas. > > > > > > > > Thanks for the information > > > > Frank > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Alexander P. Loinaz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:51 AM > > > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine > > > > > > > > Franklin, > > > > > > > > You can buy Bio 2T from Senbel Fine Chemicals at telephone # (632) > > > > 850-6877 in the Philippines. They sell the Estrol brand of Bio 2T > > which > > > > was tested by the National Center for Transport Studies of the > > > > University of the Philippines Engineering Department. This was > > proven to > > > > > > > > be superior in performance and emission levels (gaseous and visible > > > > smoke) against the biggest selling 2T mineral oil in the market. Best > > > > used as a pre mix at 40:1. All autolubes of 2 stroke motorcycles > > in the > > > > Philippines are set at 20:1 which is the reason for the high smoke and > > > > accumulation of wasted unburned oil in the muffler system. For the > > same > > > > pre-mix ratio as the mineral based lubricant, visible smoke was > > reduced > > > > to almost nil with the use of Estrol Bio 2T > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > Franklin B. Del Rosario wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi to all > > > > > > > > > > I would like to report to the group that my 83 model Yamaha > > motorcycle > > > > > was running good with BD as a lube oil. Smoke was reduce and no more > > > > oil > > > > > dripping on my muffler. I sent my motorcycle for emission test > > center > > > > > the result were as follow: > > > > > Data reading > > > > > CO2 2.90% > > > > > CO 3.39% > > > > > HC 5396PPM > > > > > O2 13.29% > > > > > AFVR 20.95 > > > > > LAMBDA 1.44 > > > > > > > > > > STANDARD GAS LIMIT > > > > > CO2 20.00% > > > > > CO 6.00% > > > > > HC 10000PPM > > > > > LAMBDA 1.00 +/- 0.99 > > > > > RESULT OK PASSED > > > > > > > > > > The result of emission test using BD as a lube oil is very > > encouraging > > > > > compared to 2T lubricating oil from oil producing company petrobased > > > > oil > > > > > > > > > > Pouring in 100% BD at auto lube oil tank had a problem of > > leaking oil > > > > > seal at metering pump. I guess that BD is too thin or rubber seal > > > > worn. > > > > > So I drain the BD out of auto lube oil tank and metering pump let it > > > > > dry for a couple of days and mix BD with 2T oil 50:50 ratio and > > mix BD > > > > > with gasoline tank at 5 % proportion. It works and I, m still > > using my > > > > > motorcycle in and out of city proper with out smoke unlike before. > > > > > > > > > > Does anybody from the group that can give idea of how to replace > > this > > > > 2T > > > > > oil with environmental friendly lubricating oil that can be > > blend with > > > > > BD and reduce the ill effect of BD to rubber seal? > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > frank Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
