Tanks Jack,
This needed to be said and it cannot be too long. Hakan At 17:53 12/12/2003, you wrote: >Hi Keith, et. al. > I am glad that this conversation is happening, because I think that > it is perhaps one of the most important discussions out there > today. That is, how do we seek to redefine our economies in such a way > that localized development for subsistence and self-autonomy can parallel > a business model that operates for-profit in the market. First, I > pretend nothing - especially not to have any answers - but I am intrigued > by the question...enough so that it forms the basis of my daily work. I > will expose some of my less formulated thinking for the group to mull > about and help me refine in hopes that it may also add something to the > conversation. > Our model with biofuel production started as a mission to reduce our > ecological footprint in a fragile coastal/marine environment on > Eleuthera. As a school and R&D agency, we also wanted to be able to > develop a system that would be a functional model for others in this area > and we would help them develop those opportunities. We also found that > what was best for the environment was also best for the bottom line. We > had an aging fleet of gasoline vehicles from Detroit that guzzled > fuel. Over 8 months, as they died, we replaced them with efficient > diesel passenger and work vehicles from Japan at a cost of $60,000 (for 7 > vehicles in great condition). I have invested roughly $10,000 in the lab > (including the building) that we now use to process the fuel. If I could > do it all over again with the experience that I now have, I think I could > do it for about half that. As it stands, with what we produce and the > average p! rice of #2 diesel in The Bahamas we save about $13,000 in fuel > every year using biodiesel. Not only does that pay for the lab in under > a year, but it starts eating away at the very cost of the vehicles such > that our total investment is recouped in roughly 5 years. All this while > preventing tons of carbon from entering the atmosphere, lowering marine > toxicity hazards, reducing a seperate wastestream, keeping more money > local for fuel, getting a better product than #2 diesel and establishing > an effective model. Now that serious profit!! I have the list member at > JTF to thank - I give a great deal of credit to everyone who has helped > me and I mention them on every tour I give. If I had money to give, I > woudl certainly support JtF for their continual efforts. I don't. > What I would do is offer JtF the same services they have offered me, > to the extent of my ability. I am not personally proprietary over any > aspects of what my organization does here and it will continue to benefit > me and my organization no matter how many other people know about it or > choose to pursue it (I think). This is the same for all aspects of our > organization: fish farming, land farming, renewable energy development, > local building materials, water resource management, marine resource > management - we are a clearing house aiming to amplify the good work that > others do that we can emulate here, as well as developing our own models > and making them available. > We also need to make a living. There are unique opportunities I > think for public/private partnerships and not-for-profit and for-profit > entities to enter into relationships thatare mutually beneficial, > socially acceptible and ecologically solvent. Our fish farming endeavor > operates as a for profit agency that has seperate investors and top > management. We make it happen on the ground and as a result a percentage > of all profits (somewhat large) goes as a donation back to our foundation > that we can then use to further develop other systems that may function > as models. It also covers part of my salary indirectly. Iam presently > working on three seperate biodiesel inititiatives in The Bahamas. Two > are smal community scale (300 g/week) projects funded by local private > investors with some assistance for which all benefits will be local. The > third is somewhat larger and involved a commercial opportunity where the > potential ! to build a 500,000 gpy plant exists. There is substantial > benefit in both of these I think. Funding opportunites for small scale > producers are limited, but by creating a partnership between my > organization and a for-profit commercial enterprise, we can earmark funds > coming in from that plant for out-island development of further biofuels > industries. We are committed to making it work. It will not be us > getting a lot of money from any of this, much like JtF gets nothing for > the information they share. We get enough to continue to stay afloat > (through a huge variety of activities) and make a living while working to > acheive our mission in The Bahamas. > I agree with Keith that there should be no ethical dilemna with > making biodiesel for profit per se. It has more to do with how you > choose to do it, and the extent to which that business furthers the real > goal that I think underlies the whole small scale biofuel movement in the > first place - to make a better world (I hope I don't get bashed > here). Quite simply we need to rethink our design of industry. I think > entrenpeurs should jump on opportunities to make money. We need that > spark. But to do so in a way that deprives us of our very source of all > wealth (eg human and natural capital) is simply foolhardy. We do it a lot. > Scale is also important - too big and it gets difficult to maintain > the ethical standards you desire (See Schumacher, Small is > Beautiful). Keith has said that he started JtF knowing that the > information exchanged there would be exchanged freely, with no profit > (financial) to him or JtF - he did it anyway. I would suggest that if > you intend to profit off of an industry that perhaps JtF helped you to > conceive of or enact, that you do you best to ensure that your business > is the kind that we need for our future - that it holds itsefl to the > same rigorous standards of integrity, creativity and justice that JtF > stands for (I hope I am not speaking out of place here). Whew, morning > coffee buzz hasn't worn off and I hope this is intelligible, if > long. Good luck! > >Jack > >p.s. Keith, if you measure profit in some of the same ways that I do >(knowing you are making a steady and strong change for the better) then >let your coffers be full - you are to be applauded and I thank you. >_______________________________________________________________ >Jack Kenworthy >Sustainable Systems Director >The Cape Eleuthera Institute >242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax >www.islandschool.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Addison > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 2:36 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Commercial production > > > Hi Hakan > > >If you can sell your biodiesel and make a profit that is acceptable for > >you, please sell it. The morality does not rest with who is using it, > it is > >rather that someone is prepared to use it. It is not like you are giving > >someone an advantage or a favor. It is that someone has moral enough that > >buy it, often despite a higher price, and use it for the to support future > >generations. > > > >It is a huge task to change the fossil habits and every little step is > >important. Promote and make a good business out of diversified biofuel > >production and do not attempt to make it an honor for your clients to buy > >from you. This way you are acting in a moral way and every gallon sold, > >substitute the use of a gallon of fossil fuel. Your and other small > >producers success is a moral thing in itself. > > > >Good luck and go out and get the totally immoral energy corporations! > > > >Hakan > > But this isn't really what William was asking. The nub of it's near the > end: > > > >the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by > > >turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) > >by others. > > He's worried about the rights and wrongs of taking and using for > commercial gain information freely given at Journey to Forever, a lot > of which comes from here, the Biofuel list - very many people have > given their time and efforts to developing the biodiesel information > and technology now available to anybody. Would it be right for a > business just to take it over, put their name on it and get rich off > it? > > Thor said this of the Biofuel list a while back: > > "I just want to say how important what you all are doing here is. > Closed-system fuel production, on a local or small regional scale, > tied to local resources, using accessible technologies, and dependent > on entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information > exchange - it's AWESOME. Keep up the good work everyone, before the > planet fries." > > "... entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information > exchange..." But how exactly does that work? > > There are people here, list members, who're just here for what they > can get. Some of them are using the list, the list members and list > resources as a free consultancy service - they take what they want, > even raise discussions on it, and put it to their own use. This might > have nothing to do with what Thor said and what we're all on about > here - small-scale, localised, distributed biofuels production, truly > sustainable, renewable energy production with a future to it. Some of > them have big plans for high-production, centralised plants and would > normally be paying megabucks to consultancies for the kind of > information they get here for nothing. What's most noticeable is that > they PUT NOTHING BACK IN. Some even talk of patents. I suppose they > think we're a bunch of mugs. We know a lot of people do that with the > information at Journey to Forever as well - we get quite seriously > ripped off. Well, we knew that would happen when we started it but > decided to do it anyway. Our perhaps idealistic idea of it is that > the rip-off merchants don't thrive, though they might think they do, > and that those who know what it means to cast your bread upon the > waters do thrive, and not only that but it spreads. > > Indeed there are those here (the majority?) who understand the > meaning of collaboration and act accordingly. We have some fine > examples of "entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source > information exchange" - it works both ways, not just one-way. Bill > Clark's excellent project comes to mind, Jack Kenworthy at the Island > School, quite a few others. I'd like to hear their views on these > issues. And Todd's, who has a clear vision of this. Also Mark, who > most eloquently outlined the downside in her "Homebrewer on a > soapbox" post: > ><http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/18491/>http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/18491/ > > In brief, what sort of small biofuels business do we support, and > what sort do we not support? The excellent information developed > collaboratively by list members and available to all in the archives > and at Journey to Forever is or isn't available for commercial use, > and if it is, under what conditions? Not that we can stop anyone > using it, it's there for the taking, the door's wide open, but some > clear-cut language in a sign on the door wouldn't go amiss. We all > want to see biofuels replacing fossil fuels, but we've also come to > realise that there are good ways and bad ways of doing it. Many of us > don't see the NBB and Big Soy eg as our friends in any way - their > aims are not our aims, often quite the opposite. Some of us don't see > so-called "small producers" as necessarily any better than big ones > (and not all big ones are the same either). > > We have a lot of history to go on now, we've covered most of this > ground in detail, and mostly via events, developments, problems that > had to be solved, barriers that had to be removed - not just talk. We > should be able to distill quite a clear picture out of it all so we > can give people who ask questions like William's some guidance, and > encouragement. And show certain others the door. > > I think the Linux crowd knows more about this than we do. We have > some Linux freaks among us - do they have any light to shed? > > Best wishes > > Keith > > > >At 19:45 09/12/2003, you wrote: > > >Keith- > > > > > >First, I must take my hat off to you and everyone else involved in the > > >project and website. The wealth of information is amazing and I > hope that > > >this information becomes common knowledge. Since becoming interested in > > >biofuels I find myself constantly dreaming of a United States freed from > > >the governmental control of the fossil fuel industry. > > > > > >As I have begun my own personal journey to free myself from fossil fuels > > >(I recently purchased a 3/4 ton Dodge diesel specifically to run on > > >biodiesel) I have been approached by a friend who would like to go into > > >business producing biodiesel. > > > > > >My question is: Are (or rather, Would) we be crossing ethical lines by > > >producing biodiesel commercially (read: for profit)? > > > > > >Although we are a processor and system that is in many ways unique from > > >the processors that are described on this site and others that have > links > > >on this site, most all of the inspiration has come from this site. The > > >basic chemical process will also most likely be similar to the "recipes" > > >given by Aleks Kac and Joshua Tickell although we plan on using a > > >filtering process to refine the biodiesel to commercial specs as opposed > > >to washing it. > > > > > >My original goal is still to produce biodiesel for personal use, but if > > >our ideas end up working as well as we think they will, I plan on > becoming > > >and entrepreneur and do my part to make biodiesel a mainstream > option for > > >the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by > > >turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) > >by others. > > > > > >Thank you for your time and wonderful work > > >billyO ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. 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