Keith,
It is so many who does a great job in sharing, Yourself, Girl Mark, Todd, MM and many others, that both are vocal and silent. This is your profit and it is huge and rewarding. It is the only way to get a movement in the right direction going. The atmosphere on the JTF list is constructive and positive, even during hard energy political. (and sometimes less to do with energy), are discussed. It is a very good group. I joined a few groups, to see if I found ones that I could recommend in my different sections. It is a large difference, except for a few where most members also are involved with JTF and that are specialized in a good way. I found out where some persons did go, when they left JTF, interesting experience of good and bad. Of course the information on JTF is going to be partially used for commercial production and it is nothing wrong with that. I do hope and belive that the JTF site and the discussion group will be able to rub of its generally good ethics and it is more effective than trying to set guide lines or some sort of rules. Setting a good example is often the most effective. Hakan At 21:13 14/12/2003, you wrote: >Hi Hakan > > >Keith, > > > >I misunderstood, probably because I read one of the answers who assume that > >this was the question, before I answered. > >No problem Hakan. > > >We have our site > <http://energysavingnow.com/>http://energysavingnow.com/ who deals with > our quite > >unique research and experiences concerning buildings, plus some education > >on energy in general, information that can result in spectacular energy > >savings. What we have to communicate is free to use, otherwise the > >publication of it is meaningless. My understanding is that JFT has the same > >goals together with anyone who publish descriptions on how to make things > >on our sites. > > > >It is at the end almost always the case that someone makes money on this > >kind of information, it is the nature of it. The one who applies it will > >save money and others can sell methods or equipment that saves energy (make > >money). The only problem is that we now not only put in many hours of work > >on this, we also have to pay the costs. It is however the only way to try > >to make a difference that counts at the end. JTF and your work is a good > >example on this for biofuels. > > > >Even if I misunderstood the question, the answer covers in a way the > >original question also. If we at this stage wanted to make money, we would > >not publish our knowledge and instead continue as consulting engineers. We > >would only publish our impressive results from Sweden and then use our > >knowledge against remuneration. This way we would earn money, but our > >capacity would not be enough to make the slightest difference on the energy > >total energy situation. > >That's exactly right. For us it's much broader than energy issues, >but the same applies. > > >Others will use our information and get money. This is good, because it > >will rapidly further our cause and maybe make an important addition to > >solving the total problem. This is the nature of education and publication. > > > >I cannot say much more about it, without duplicating or direct copying of > >what you are saying. > >There's something about givers and takers - give to givers and take >from takers, we used to say. Takers take and nothing else happens, >nothing comes back, nothing spreads, nothing grows, nothing changes. >Stony ground. > >That's what I want to establish. We can't stop people just taking and >never adding anything in exchange, but I think it would help a lot to >lay it out clearly just what sort of biofuels (and other) businesses >we support and why (not just me, all of us), and what we don't >support, and why. > >Mark's already laid the groundwork for the second bit: > > >From: girl mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:11:41 -0800 > >Subject: [biofuel] Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to > > > ><snip> > > > >But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since > >when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? > >People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks > >are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having > >made a liter of homebrew first. It's important to realize that we are not > >the same, there's not this big industry vs homebrewersandsmallproducers > >thing, we have three separate agendas that may or may not overlap. > > > >case in point: I've met a good number of people since the relaxing of > >government regs here, who have a huge glimmer in their eyes and are seeing > >big bucks in the potential of an easy-to-enter energy market (relatively > >speaking, it is easy to make biodiesel, not anywhere as easy or low > >investment to make other forms of energy to sell.) I think a bunch of the > >would-be small producers I've met are good people, but I see a major > >distinction between them and homebrewers, and am starting to refine my > >mission, and recognize where my allegiances lie- with the svo'ers and the > >homebrewers, who are not the same as small producers. > > > ><snip> > > > > I;'ve found myself, several times in my life, riding the crest of the > >'hot thing', a major trend, and I'm suddenly seeing the same patterns in > >the biodiesel world in the past few months as I've seen in several other > >arenas and finding interesting patterns emerging. It seems to me that just > >recently everyone is trying to figure out where everyone else fits in to > >the biodiesel picture as a resource. In berkeley me and a few other > >homebrewers and svo'ers have been calling this new trend Oil Fever. It > >seems like everyone and their mother are suddenly trying to get in on the > >game. We';ll see where it leads, I'm sure there'll be some good people like > >Todd Swearingen and more, sharing info and insights with beginners, and I;m > >also sure that we'll see loads of people like one or two I've recently met > >or corresponded with, who will do their damnedest to gather as much info > >from the homebrewers and try and make a dollar out of it without > >necessarily having anything to reciprocate the exchange, or coming from the > >homebrewer's world. We are still working often with the misconception that > >we all have the same goals- spreading the word about biodiesel at all > >costs, and industry will try and pressure people with this tactic. But it > >isn't this way now, and we all have a different agenda. the small producer > >agenda is relatively new here and we homebrewers and small producers, and > >SVO people, are still figuring out what that is in relation to industry and > >each other. and small producers sometimes use that 'we're all working for > >the same thing' tactic just like industry does. > > > > Face it, biodiesel is hot, it's a glamorous form of consumerism for a lot > >of progressives, and suddenly the government indicates it might be easy for > >small producers to get in the game of selling energy. (!!!!!) A small > >businessperson competing with the likes of World Energy/gulf oil/proctor > >and Gamble (World Energy, y'all) /ADM/Monsanto. Where else do you get this > >opportunity? so it attracts people from all over the spectrum, with > >varying agendas. > > > > In berkeley it's my oil source that seems to light up would-be small > >capitalists' eyes. A bunch of us get oil from a factory that fries foods, > >so it's in good quantity and good quality, though not all that different > >than the quantity, and sometimes quality, that's at a few restaurants > >around University Ave either. I've beaten off three people with small > >-producer goals in the past two months who don't see any reason why this > >resource that has been cultivated by homebrewers for about three years > >now, isn't something that we wouldn't want to just hand over to > >businesspeople, just cause it's for the Greater Good of spreading the word > >about biodiesel or whatever. All three had the identical response to > >learning about the oil resource- they all said, oh, that would work for our > >needs- right in front of me- and then all three said they'd of course make > >sure they'd broker the contract with the plant so that our coop would get > >some of what they didn;t use. Amazing. Here we are, homebrewers, with > >resource homebrewers developed, the good, buddy-like relationship to the > >food processing factory people- some of us are friends with some of them- > >and three would-be small producers want to tell us that we should just let > >them step in and 'broker' the relationship we already have with this place, > >as if they had something to offer us. Or that we should do them favors > >cause we owe them something, maybe? > > > >That, in microcosm, is the kind of the misconceptions that people in > >business get about homebrewers- big or small, they want to think they have > >something to offer us, or that we're a stepping-stone to the more 'real' > >work that they somehow do because they're starting a business and we're > >just cooperating amongst ourselves- yet no one has much to offer us that we > >can't already find ourselves in our own local resources. > > > >That local resourcefulness is the 'appeal of the homebrew'. > > > > (I talked to an acquaintance last week, who at that point was about to > >start producing homebrew biodiesel to modestly fuel his business' new > >diesel vehicles, and this person was talking last week about getting 5 > >gallons a week here and 10 gallons a week there of oil from some rank > >burger joints. When I made the mistake of mentioning to him that we get oil > >from an industrial food processing source (think Tater Tots and frozen > >fries, everyone, there's lots of industrial food processing places around > >in every town, and plants are quite happy to give away their oil to you > >just like the restaurants do), this guy's eyes lit up. Uh oh. Less than > >one week later he was trying to get the exact name of our oil source out of > >us and talking up some new plans to start a business to produce fuel to > >sell to the city of berkeley when they start using biodiesel in municipal > >vehicles... quite a big change in about, oh, five days. > > > > This kind of thing has happened to me a few times recently- and it's made > >me refine my mission as an educator of homebrewers, not a biodiesel use > >promoter in general. (and oil fever affects me too, I also want to sell > >fuel somehow. It's hard to resist the appeal) But realistically, I've > >realized that I'm more interested in seeing homebrewers get their act > >together, spreading information among homebrewers, and to work towards > >getting the general culture of homebrewing to change to a more > >quality-oriented one. I and am much less interested in making sure that > >more Berkeley-ites start selling their new gas cars and driving old > >Mercedes diesels. Others have that mission, and others still have the > >mission of making the small producer option a viable living for dedicated > >individuals and a viable way of decentralizing energy production, and > >others still have the mission of promoting biofuels use in fleets, on > >farms, in municipal vehicles, in classrooms as a chemistry teaching tool, > >and other specialized educational tasks. It is important to not confuse > >what we all do, and assume that what is good for small producers is to the > >benefit of homebrewers, or that we even want to collaborate with small > >producers or industry. > > > ><snip> > > > >Like I said above, biodiesel is hot right now, it's trendy in some sectors, > >and homebrew and small producer work has an appeal with a mythical wild > >west, anything-is-possible aura to it. Competing with Big Oil on some level? > > > >And this leads to a lot of people trying to milk a lot of others in this > >scene (industry milking homebrewers for publicity, a few, and probably a > >lot more coming up, newfangled would-be small producers probably jostling > >with one another and with us for resources and information, and everyone > >waiting to see where this great thing goes.) > >and again, most of the small producers are probably great people, and I';ve > >certainly met very nice ones, I'm just noticing a trend. > > > > It's a good time for us to give thought to what our exact mission is, and > >to refine our role therein. > > > >girl Mark > >Berkeley > ><http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/18491/>http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/18491/ > >Best > >Keith > > > > >Hakan > > > > > >At 20:36 11/12/2003, you wrote: > > >Hi Hakan > > > > > > >If you can sell your biodiesel and make a profit that is acceptable for > > > >you, please sell it. The morality does not rest with who is > >using it, it is > > > >rather that someone is prepared to use it. It is not like you are giving > > > >someone an advantage or a favor. It is that someone has moral enough > that > > > >buy it, often despite a higher price, and use it for the to support > future > > > >generations. > > > > > > > >It is a huge task to change the fossil habits and every little step is > > > >important. Promote and make a good business out of diversified biofuel > > > >production and do not attempt to make it an honor for your clients > to buy > > > >from you. This way you are acting in a moral way and every gallon sold, > > > >substitute the use of a gallon of fossil fuel. Your and other small > > > >producers success is a moral thing in itself. > > > > > > > >Good luck and go out and get the totally immoral energy corporations! > > > > > > > >Hakan > > > > > >But this isn't really what William was asking. The nub of it's near > the end: > > > > > > > >the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by > > > > >turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) > > > >by others. > > > > > >He's worried about the rights and wrongs of taking and using for > > >commercial gain information freely given at Journey to Forever, a lot > > >of which comes from here, the Biofuel list - very many people have > > >given their time and efforts to developing the biodiesel information > > >and technology now available to anybody. Would it be right for a > > >business just to take it over, put their name on it and get rich off > > >it? > > > > > >Thor said this of the Biofuel list a while back: > > > > > >"I just want to say how important what you all are doing here is. > > >Closed-system fuel production, on a local or small regional scale, > > >tied to local resources, using accessible technologies, and dependent > > >on entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information > > >exchange - it's AWESOME. Keep up the good work everyone, before the > > >planet fries." > > > > > >"... entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information > > >exchange..." But how exactly does that work? > > > > > >There are people here, list members, who're just here for what they > > >can get. Some of them are using the list, the list members and list > > >resources as a free consultancy service - they take what they want, > > >even raise discussions on it, and put it to their own use. This might > > >have nothing to do with what Thor said and what we're all on about > > >here - small-scale, localised, distributed biofuels production, truly > > >sustainable, renewable energy production with a future to it. Some of > > >them have big plans for high-production, centralised plants and would > > >normally be paying megabucks to consultancies for the kind of > > >information they get here for nothing. What's most noticeable is that > > >they PUT NOTHING BACK IN. Some even talk of patents. I suppose they > > >think we're a bunch of mugs. We know a lot of people do that with the > > >information at Journey to Forever as well - we get quite seriously > > >ripped off. Well, we knew that would happen when we started it but > > >decided to do it anyway. Our perhaps idealistic idea of it is that > > >the rip-off merchants don't thrive, though they might think they do, > > >and that those who know what it means to cast your bread upon the > > >waters do thrive, and not only that but it spreads. > > > > > >Indeed there are those here (the majority?) who understand the > > >meaning of collaboration and act accordingly. We have some fine > > >examples of "entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source > > >information exchange" - it works both ways, not just one-way. Bill > > >Clark's excellent project comes to mind, Jack Kenworthy at the Island > > >School, quite a few others. I'd like to hear their views on these > > >issues. And Todd's, who has a clear vision of this. Also Mark, who > > >most eloquently outlined the downside in her "Homebrewer on a > > >soapbox" post: > > ><<http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/18491/>http://archive.nnyte > ch.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/18491/>http://archive.nn > >ytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/18491/ > > > > > >In brief, what sort of small biofuels business do we support, and > > >what sort do we not support? The excellent information developed > > >collaboratively by list members and available to all in the archives > > >and at Journey to Forever is or isn't available for commercial use, > > >and if it is, under what conditions? Not that we can stop anyone > > >using it, it's there for the taking, the door's wide open, but some > > >clear-cut language in a sign on the door wouldn't go amiss. We all > > >want to see biofuels replacing fossil fuels, but we've also come to > > >realise that there are good ways and bad ways of doing it. Many of us > > >don't see the NBB and Big Soy eg as our friends in any way - their > > >aims are not our aims, often quite the opposite. Some of us don't see > > >so-called "small producers" as necessarily any better than big ones > > >(and not all big ones are the same either). > > > > > >We have a lot of history to go on now, we've covered most of this > > >ground in detail, and mostly via events, developments, problems that > > >had to be solved, barriers that had to be removed - not just talk. We > > >should be able to distill quite a clear picture out of it all so we > > >can give people who ask questions like William's some guidance, and > > >encouragement. And show certain others the door. > > > > > >I think the Linux crowd knows more about this than we do. We have > > >some Linux freaks among us - do they have any light to shed? > > > > > >Best wishes > > > > > >Keith > > > > > > > > > >At 19:45 09/12/2003, you wrote: > > > > >Keith- > > > > > > > > > >First, I must take my hat off to you and everyone else involved in the > > > > >project and website. The wealth of information is amazing and > >I hope that > > > > >this information becomes common knowledge. Since becoming > interested in > > > > >biofuels I find myself constantly dreaming of a United States > freed from > > > > >the governmental control of the fossil fuel industry. > > > > > > > > > >As I have begun my own personal journey to free myself from fossil > fuels > > > > >(I recently purchased a 3/4 ton Dodge diesel specifically to run on > > > > >biodiesel) I have been approached by a friend who would like to go > into > > > > >business producing biodiesel. > > > > > > > > > >My question is: Are (or rather, Would) we be crossing ethical > lines by > > > > >producing biodiesel commercially (read: for profit)? > > > > > > > > > >Although we are a processor and system that is in many ways unique > from > > > > >the processors that are described on this site and others that > >have links > > > > >on this site, most all of the inspiration has come from this > site. The > > > > >basic chemical process will also most likely be similar to the > "recipes" > > > > >given by Aleks Kac and Joshua Tickell although we plan on using a > > > > >filtering process to refine the biodiesel to commercial specs as > opposed > > > > >to washing it. > > > > > > > > > >My original goal is still to produce biodiesel for personal use, > but if > > > > >our ideas end up working as well as we think they will, I plan > >on becoming > > > > >and entrepreneur and do my part to make biodiesel a mainstream > >option for > > > > >the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by > > > > >turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) > > > >by others. > > > > > > > > > >Thank you for your time and wonderful work > > > > >billyO ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. 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