Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, & hydrogen energy efficiencies

[Tom Irwin]

Greeting all,

 

What would happen to the Cornell results if a crop like sugar beets was used instead of corn?

 

Tom Irwin

---

From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:45:27 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, & hydrogen energy efficiencies


Bob A,

Pimentels research might be a valid representation of the results from a
very well defined process. The problem is that it is a very narrow set of
parameters and they look like they are chosen to get a predetermined result
and an argument that benefit those that wants to limit ethanol use.

He is centering the investigation on Corn, who's sugar/starch content is on
the limit of economic feasibility anyway. Even in his case sugar cane or
potatoes, would give a different result. This means that with some
assumptions, like growing process and choice/volume of fertilizers will
have a large impact on the result. Also the choice/use of energy source for
distilling process is critical, when choosing high grade petroleum instead
of available plant waste. He is using the worst case parameters in all
respect and will of course get a negative result or more like input equal
to output. Why he really deserves criticism is that he present his narrow
case research as having general validity and that is also why the
suspicions about his objectivity have a very strong foundation.

For people that have some scientific knowledge, it is easy detected. For
people that are producing ethanol, it does not related to their practical
experiences. It is only for people without some knowledge/experience, and
unfortunately decision makers/politicians are included in this group, that
his research presentation have any general validity. The people with the
background to judge his work, must come to the question why such a research
is done at all and for them it looks like a waste of time and money.
Pimentel is however head of a university research department and as such he
must find grants/financing for his activities. All universities have this
situation and they also accept grants/projects from the
commercial/industrial private sector. I is a dream, with no connection to
reality, that universities and their professors represent uncorrupted
objectivity.

I do not understand why you defend the assumption that Pimentel must to be
objective. He is obviously competent, otherwise nobody would take notice
and he would not get the grants. It is nothing wrong in what he is saying,
it is the way he is saying it.

Hakan


At 04:54 AM 8/4/2005, you wrote:
>Andrew,
>
>I know you said it in jest, but the unfortunate effect of your sarcasm
>regarding David Pimentel, one of the nations' outstanding scientists, is
>to support the ignorant critics of good science who argue that, "if I
>believe in a proposition, then anyone who presents evidence that
>contradicts my belief is a malicious fool and not to be believed".
>
>It is true that a few pseudoscientists acting as industry shills will
>(for a fee) produce a "scientific study" supporting any industry-desired
>conclusion, but your implication that Pimentel is such an Exxon shill is
>blatant slander, and I am ashamed to see it on the Biofuels site.
>
>I assume that you wish ethanol's EROEI (energy return over energy input)
>to be positive, thus making it a useful energy source as we approach the
>end of fossil fuels. So do I - and so would lots of other folks. I'm sure
>also that David Pimentel shares that wish. The difference between you and
>Pimentel is that as a scientist, he says, "It's a great idea and I hope
>it's true, but what if it isn't? So let's run the numbers and seek the
>truth of the matter. If it turns out the EROEI is negative, we would be
>commiting a cruel and expensive hoax on the nation to propose ethanol as
>an energy solution."
>
>I am as disappointed as you must be in his analysis showing a negative
>EROEI. And I look forward to additional valid studies testing and
>challenging his conclusion. But to lampoon his work because you don't
>like the color of - was it his socks? - is not a worthy act on your
>part. I'm sure you can do better. I hope you will.
>
>In all sincerity and hoping that your future jests will be more benign,
>
>Bob A.
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Lowe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To:
>Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 4:15 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel,& hydrogen energy
>efficiencies
>
>
>Michael wrote:
>>This press release below produced the AP story that follows it.
>>
>>July 5, 2005
>>Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and biodiesel from
>>corn and other crops is not worth the energy
>>
>>By Susan S. Lang
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris Hallman/University Photography
>>
>> Ecologist David Pimentel, shown here pumping gas, says that his
>> analysis shows that producing ethanol uses more energy than the
>> resulting fuel generates. Copyright © Cornell University
>[snip]
>
>Sorry for the late reply on this one, but with dress sense like what
>was shown in the picture how can anyone take this bloke seriously? I ask
>you. Also with that posture and the look on his face, has anyone checked
>for a pulse? It reminds me of an episode of "The Goodies" where they
>where shown using the Russian Politburo as glove puppets - aahhh I see
>it - if you squint at the part between his left leg and the car I'm
>sure I see an arm with an Exxon logo on it.......... ;)
>
>Yours in jest,
>Andrew



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