Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, & hydrogen energy efficiencies

[Greg and April]

Still, thousands of people handle it on a daily basis, with no extra special effort and no problems.    About the only problems I hear about is when methanol is mistaken for ethanol.    IIRC I read of 17 fatalities and 55 non-fatal cases in 2002, involving methanol, which is better than ethanol's record of 693 deaths, directly from ethanol poisoning ( not to mention all the indirect deaths and injury's from drunk driving ) in 2003.   OSHA Exposure limits: Methanol 200 ppm Gasoline 300 ppm Benzene ( as a component of gasoline ) 1 ppm Toluene  ( as above ) 200 ppm Xylene    ( as above ) 100 ppm   As can be seen, methanol is about as safe as gasoline, and in some cases, much safer than some of the components that make up gasoline.     Greg H.   ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Irwin To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 8:07 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel,& hydrogen energy efficiencies Hi All,   I don't think ethanol will be a dinosaur in 20 years but would appreciate why you think so if it is other than yields per hectare. Methanol has the capacity to produce some nasty tailpipe emmission (as does ethanol but less so) and is far more toxic to humans and animals than ethanol. Another component of sustainability is safety. I would not wish to see methanol filling stations. Most people have no concept how nasty it is. Yes, it can be handled safely by those who understand the dangers but most folks don't have that knowledge.   Tom Irwin   From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 10:35:58 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, & hydrogen energy efficiencies Still, all rather sad how ethanol has become the predominate alternative fuel of choice for gasoline applications when methanol yields far higher outputs per acre with far fewer inputs. At 75% of the energy content as ethanol, the energy yield per acre (100 gallons per ton of dry biomass) outstrips corn derived ethanol, even on a good day. The real crux of the matter would be to choose crops of high seasonal yield, inclusive of those suitable for pre- and post plantings of other crops in the same annular cycle. My book makes ethanol a dinosaur within 20 years. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: > Hello Bob, Andrew > > Normally I'd agree with you Bob, but not in Pimentel's case, that time > was long ago, and now Andrew's response is not inappropriate. Pimentel > merits little better than scorn and derision > >> Andrew, >> >> I know you said it in jest, but the unfortunate effect of your >> sarcasm regarding David Pimentel, one of the nations' outstanding >> scientists, is to support the ignorant critics of good science who >> argue that, "if I believe in a proposition, then anyone who presents >> evidence that contradicts my belief is a malicious fool and not to be >> believed". >> >> It is true that a few pseudoscientists acting as industry shills >> will (for a fee) produce a "scientific study" supporting any >> industry-desired conclusion, but your implication that Pimentel is >> such an Exxon shill is blatant slander, and I am ashamed to see it on >> the Biofuels site. >> >> I assume that you wish ethanol's EROEI (energy return over energy >> input) to be positive, thus making it a useful energy source as we >> approach the end of fossil fuels. So do I - and so would lots of >> other folks. I'm sure also that David Pimentel shares that wish. The >> difference between you and Pimentel is that as a scientist, he says, >> "It's a great idea and I hope it's true, but what if it isn't? So >> let's run the numbers and seek the truth of the matter. If it turns >> out the EROEI is negative, we would be commiting a cruel and >> expensive hoax on the nation to propose ethanol as an energy solution." > > > Not so, sad to say. Pimentel has long been aware that the data he uses > is outdated and wrong, but he keeps using it anyway. Implying that > he's an Exxon-et al shill is not blatant slander, the question has to > be asked why he continues doing this, and asked of his publishers too. > This is peer review? I think not. It certainly is not science. It's > propaganda. > >> I am as disappointed as you must be in his analysis showing a >> negative EROEI. And I look forward to additional valid studies >> testing and challenging his conclusion. > > > Those have been to hand for a long time, more and more of them, > debunking every aspect of Pimentel's claims. Pimentel takes no notice, > neither do his publishers. > >> But to lampoon his work because you don't like the color of - was it >> his socks? - is not a worthy act on your part. > > > Well, I don't know, I suppose we can take his socks about as seriously > as the rest of him. > > Nothing new here - we've been discussing Pimentel's repeated and > rather successful disinformation campaign since early 2001. As John > said when he posted this latest bout, he does it every year. > > Please see these recent messages, to put it in perspective: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg52605.html > Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, & hydrogen energy efficien > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg52756.html > Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, & hydrogen energy efficienc > > Best wishes > > Keith > > >> I'm sure you can do better. I hope you will. >> >> In all sincerity and hoping that your future jests will be more benign, >> >> Bob A. >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Lowe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: >> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 4:15 AM >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel,& hydrogen >> energy efficiencies >> >> >> Michael wrote: >> >>> This press release below produced the AP story that follows it. >>> >>> July 5, 2005 >>> Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and biodiesel >>> from corn and other crops is not worth the energy >>> >>> By Susan S. Lang >>> >>> >>> >>> Chris Hallman/University Photography >>> >>> Ecologist David Pimentel, shown here pumping gas, says that his >>> analysis shows that producing ethanol uses more energy than the >>> resulting fuel generates. Copyright © Cornell University >>> >> [snip] >> >> Sorry for the late reply on this one, but with dress sense like what >> was shown in the picture how can anyone take this bloke seriously? I ask >> you. Also with that posture and the look on his face, has anyone checked >> for a pulse? It reminds me of an episode of "The Goodies" where they >> where shown using the Russian Politburo as glove puppets - aahhh I see >> it - if you squint at the part between his left leg and the car I'm >> sure I see an arm with an Exxon logo on it.......... ;) >> >> Yours in jest, >> Andrew > > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/     _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

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