Hello Todd,
Let's forgo toxicity and byproducts for a moment and talk about efficiency. I could be mistaken but if I can take cellulose and biologically convert it to ethanol or methanol, I think I want the two carbon alcohol over the one carbon alcohol. If it is a question of biologically producing ethanol and chemically producing methanol, I think I still go for the biological process. I could be missing something, this is probably too simple an analysis.
Tom
From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:36:44 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, & hydrogen energy efficiencies
Dinosaur as a matter of necessity Tom. Economics may preclude or
designate that necessity.
What I find peculiar is the fact that the toxicity of gasoline isn't
mentioned here.
You also may care to take into consideration that energy farming will
inherantly reduce other industrial toxicity as biomass becomes a
constituent element within them. Mercury and sulfur reduction from the
electricity generation industry comes to mind immediately
If you're going to conduct a cost/benefit analysis Tom, let's do so
across the board and include all the benefits, rather than eluding to
but one or two specific and unquantified disbenefits, perhaps even
disbenefits that can be ameliorated or eliminated.
Todd Swearingen
Tom Irwin wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I don't think ethanol will be a dinosaur in 20 years but would
> appreciate why you think so if it is other than yields per hectare.
> Methanol has the capacity to produce some nasty tailpipe emmission (as
> does ethanol but less so) and is far more toxic to humans and animals
> than ethanol. Another component of sustainability is safety. I would
> not wish to see methanol filling stations. Most people have no concept
> how nasty it is. Yes, it can be handled safely by those who understand
> the dangers but most folks don't have that knowledge.
>
> Tom Irwin
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> *Sent:* Thu, 04 Aug 2005 10:35:58 -0300
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, & hydrogen
> energy efficiencies
>
> Still, all rather sad how ethanol has become the predominate
> alternative
> fuel of choice for gasoline applications when methanol yields far
> higher
> outputs per acre with far fewer inputs.
>
> At 75% of the energy content as ethanol, the energy yield per acre
> (100
> gallons per ton of dry biomass) outstrips corn derived ethanol,
> even on
> a good day. The real crux of the matter would be to choose crops
> of high
> seasonal yield, inclusive of those suitable for pre- and post
> plantings
> of other crops in the same annular cycle.
>
> My book makes ethanol a dinosaur within 20 years.
>
> Todd Swearingen
>
>
> Keith Addison wrote:
>
> > Hello Bob, Andrew
> >
> > Normally I'd agree with you Bob, but not in Pimentel's case,
> that time
> > was long ago, and now Andrew's response is not inappropriate.
> Pimentel
> > merits little better than scorn and derision
> >
> >> Andrew,
> >>
> >> I know you said it in jest, but the unfortunate effect of your
> >> sarcasm regarding David Pimentel, one of the nations' outstanding
> >> scientists, is to support the ignorant critics of good science who
> >> argue that, "if I believe in a proposition, then anyone who
> presents
> >> evidence that contradicts my belief is a malicious fool and not
> to be
> >> believed".
> >>
> >> It is true that a few pseudoscientists acting as industry shills
> >> will (for a fee) produce a "scientific study" supporting any
> >> industry-desired conclusion, but your implication that Pimentel is
> >> such an Exxon shill is blatant slander, and I am ashamed to see
> it on
> >> the Biofuels site.
> >>
> >> I assume that you wish ethanol's EROEI (energy return over energy
> >> input) to be positive, thus making it a useful energy source as we
> >> approach the end of fossil fuels. So do I - and so would lots of
> >> other folks. I'm sure also that David Pimentel shares that
> wish. The
> >> difference between you and Pimentel is that as a scientist, he
> says,
> >> "It's a great idea and I hope it's true, but what if it isn't? So
> >> let's run the numbers and seek the truth of the matter. If it
> turns
> >> out the EROEI is negative, we would be commiting a cruel and
> >> expensive hoax on the nation to propose ethanol as an energy
> solution."
> >
> >
> > Not so, sad to say. Pimentel has long been aware that the data
> he uses
> > is outdated and wrong, but he keeps using it anyway. Implying that
> > he's an Exxon-et al shill is not blatant slander, the question
> has to
> > be asked why he continues doing this, and asked of his
> publishers too.
> > This is peer review? I think not. It certainly is not science. It's
> > propaganda.
> >
> >> I am as disappointed as you must be in his analysis showing a
> >> negative EROEI. And I look forward to additional valid studies
> >> testing and challenging his conclusion.
> >
> >
> > Those have been to hand for a long time, more and more of them,
> > debunking every aspect of Pimentel's claims. Pimentel takes no
> notice,
> > neither do his publishers.
> >
> >> But to lampoon his work because you don't like the color of -
> was it
> >> his socks? - is not a worthy act on your part.
> >
> >
> > Well, I don't know, I suppose we can take his socks about as
> seriously
> > as the rest of him.
> >
> > Nothing new here - we've been discussing Pimentel's repeated and
> > rather successful disinformation campaign since early 2001. As John
> > said when he posted this latest bout, he does it every year.
> >
> > Please see these recent messages, to put it in perspective:
> >
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg52605.html
> > Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, & hydrogen energy
> efficien
> >
> >
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg52756.html
> > Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, & hydrogen energy
> efficienc
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >> I'm sure you can do better. I hope you will.
> >>
> >> In all sincerity and hoping that your future jests will be more
> benign,
> >>
> >> Bob A.
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Lowe"
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 4:15 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel,& hydrogen
> >> energy efficiencies
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael wrote:
> >>
> >>> This press release below produced the AP story that follows it.
> >>>
> >>> July 5, 2005
> >>> Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and
> biodiesel
> >>> from corn and other crops is not worth the energy
> >>>
> >>> By Susan S. Lang
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Chris Hallman/University Photography
> >>>
> >>> Ecologist David Pimentel, shown here pumping gas, says that his
> >>> analysis shows that producing ethanol uses more energy than the
> >>> resulting fuel generates. Copyright © Cornell University
> >>>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> Sorry for the late reply on this one, but with dress sense like
> what
> >> was shown in the picture how can anyone take this bloke
> seriously? I ask
> >> you. Also with that posture and the look on his face, has
> anyone checked
> >> for a pulse? It reminds me of an episode of "The Goodies" where
> they
> >> where shown using the Russian Politburo as glove puppets -
> aahhh I see
> >> it - if you squint at the part between his left leg and the car I'm
> >> sure I see an arm with an Exxon logo on it.......... ;)
> >>
> >> Yours in jest,
> >> Andrew
> >
> >
> >
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