Hi Darryl >Not Chris, but thought I'd chime in anyway, as the rain is providing >with that rare few spare minutes. > >Keith Addison wrote: >> Hello Chris >> >>> For a quarter of 250.00 a barrel, current solar technology will >>> fill the needs of the planet. >> >> Do you mean PVs? They have their role to play, but making them is >> dirty, recycling them later is also dirty. > >Hopefully, by now, people are figuring out that solar is so much more >than just photovoltaics (PV).
Hopefully, but I think he probably meant PVs, sure sounds like it. >But then, I've been playing at the >low-tech end for so long now I tend to forget there are still newbies to >solar water heating, solar space heating, controlling unwanted solar >gain, and of course the grandparents of solar energy, sunlight to grow >plants in the garden and the hydrologic cycle to deliver water to the >plants (and rainbarrels), rather than the tap. Indeed. >Of course, if the price of gasoline drops, even a little, then the >industrialized world and its consumer pawns will go back to sleep. Previously that's happened, this time I'm not so sure. A lot of things are different. > > What's your plan for dealing with old batteries? > >Re-use and recycling. Of course, we're mucking that up now courtesy of >cheap oil, multi-national corporations and uneven laws around >environmental behaviour, but I expect we'll eventually figure out that >we don't want to ship the old ones half-way round the world to >remanufacture them. Lead-acid has a pretty good story with regard to >recycling, probably because the "scrap" is so valuable. Last I heard, >dead lead-acid batteries (golf-cart size) are fetching $12 and more a >piece at the local boneyard. That turns out to be not a very satisfactory plan. There was a row about this here at the list in 2001, when an EV fan in the US insisted electric cars were the only way to solve the world's transport problems. He got furious with me when I asked him that question about batteries, went around saying the Biofuel list hates electric cars and so on. Sigh. He claimed it's a non-problem because there's a cash value on dead batteries. He said 97% are recycled, it's the #1 recycling success story, quoting an industry source, data for the US. But he'd said worldwide, and as someone else remarked: >...and they accumulate in remote areas of the world...an emerging problem as >we ship battery banks out with PV panels to remote areas, to be replaced >every 3-5 years with new ones, and no incentive or program to recover the >old. We are talking about a lot of PV going into service the next few >decades in these areas. What will become of the batteries? I added: >I've seen some truly horrible things being done with them - like >ground-up batteries sold to Third World farmers as "zinc fertiliser" >(and used), battery acid in illicit liquor... :-( And there's the >problem of devising recovery and incentive programs that actually >work. Anyway, the US figures weren't quite as they seemed. The industry source, Battery Council International, claimed a 96% recycling rate and said "Lead-acid batteries are the environmental success story of our time". They still say that, but now it's 97%, and not 97% of the batteries, it's 97% of the lead in them that's recycled. But a lot of that lead is already recycled - they also say "The typical new lead-acid battery contains 60 to 80 percent recycled lead and plastic." <http://www.batterycouncil.org/LeadAcidBatteries/BatteryRecycling/tabid/71/Default.aspx> That seems to make it kind of impossible to figure out quite how many of the batteries are recycled. And how many aren't recycled. Re which, back in 2001, it turned out the AAA had a different view to BCI's: >"Used vehicle batteries containing both lead and sulfuric acid are a >toxic danger to humans and the environment -- as well as a >potentially dangerous fire and safety hazard,' said Marshall L. >Doney, vice president of AAA Automotive Services. ... > >"Nearly 99 percent of a vehicle battery can be recycled and used >again without removing new lead, or other natural resources from the >environment,' said Doney. "Unfortunately more than seven million >vehicle batteries are not returned for recycling each year.' > >Many of these batteries are illegally disposed of in dumps and water >sources, but many more are simply sitting in a forgotten corner of >someone's property where they could contaminate soil and ground >water, explode in a fire or become a source of lead poisoning to >humans and animals. -- Local AAA Clubs Announce Battery Recycling Efforts in Select Cities Next Week http://www.ewire.com/display.cfm/Wire_ID/337 The numbers didn't match, according to BCI it was 3.2 million batteries not being recycled each year, not 7 million. I 'd be more inclined to believe the AAA, but even at the low figure that's still 3.2 million dumped batteries per year in the US alone, not a trivial matter, but they'd rather boast about it. It's the same here in Japan, which is pretty good at recycling, comparatively speaking, they get into the high 90s for a lot of things, and I'm sure that would include batteries, but I often see discarded batteries here, in Tokyo, in Osaka, and in the rural areas. The US and Japan aren't short of resources. How about Nepal, or Mali? Maybe we should set up good arrangements that work first, before we dump PVs on everyone. Some hope, eh? >Could always be better of course. I'd like to see more Edison cells, >then we could go a century or more before trips to the scrap yard. Building stuff that lasts a century isn't in line with current thinking on what makes a good business plan. > > Anyway, there just isn't a single, one-size-fits-all "best >> technology". It'll need all ready-to-use renewable energy >> technologies, used in combination as the local circumstances require, >> as well as reduced energy use (currently mostly waste), improved >> energy efficiency, and decentralisation of supply to the small-scale >> or farm-scale local-economy level. >> >> Many places would be better off with a biogas digester, a generator >> and a car engine, cheap and easily available stuff locals can >> maintain, plus a few palm-oil trees for transport fuel, and maybe >> passive solar, compost heat, micro-hydro, wind generators, better >> woodstoves... > >... and bicycles and walkable communities and gardens and ... Yes. I'm talking of poor places though. >Sadly, this week I feel like we're still losing more than we're winning >- Ontario announcement to further embrace big nuclear. Apparently I'm >supposed to be happy that my guerilla clotheslines were finally >legalized a couple of months ago. Not hardly. That's an insane issue. Glad you won. What if you'd called it a renewable energy carbon-saving solar and wind-powered laundry drier, you might have got a subsidy instead. Maybe you could have patented it, I don't suppose Monsanto has patented clotheslines yet. >Guess I'll have to find >some new ways to subvert the power structure. :-) I'm sure you'll manage to dream something up. Take care Best Keith ><snip text re: Bill Gates, Green Revolution, centralized solutions, etc >- no arguments here> > >> >> We have to do this stuff ourselves, local citizens of the global village. >> >> Best >> >> Keith >> ><snip old message to save bandwidth> > >-- >Darryl McMahon >Save water and your money. The Water Saver toilet fill diverter. >http://www.econogics.com/WaterSaver/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
