Hi, First of all, thanks Sergey for all the work you have done, from coding, pull request reviews, GSoC mentoring and other things. I am sad that you decided to leave, but you have the right to decide that way of course.
I wanted to say a few words publicly about this, since a few of you might be confused about the whole situation, and I think it is in order to clear some things up. Really the only unwritten rule that we have in the sympy community is to be friendly, welcoming and polite. That's how we built this community and that's not negotiable. Also, I am honestly really surprised and sad that anyone would like to negotiate such elementary principles of human interaction. We talked to you Sergey I think in March, giving you examples of some (in our opinion) bad interaction and offering help to improve it in the future. We did the same in September I believe. Aaron and I continued getting private messages from several people about unwelcoming and (sometimes even rude) atmosphere that was created on some issues and PRs. As you know Sergey, I recently offered you privately to help respond better in the future, in fact, I specifically asked you not to leave, but rather try to improve some of the communication. But you rejected my offer and rather decided to leave anyway. Again, you have the right to do so. But at that point, I don't know what else I can do to help. The problem is that most people don't complain. They either put up with it, or they leave. If the person is a new contributor, they are more likely to leave. Many people feel like they have no right to complain, because they are new to SymPy, or because they haven't contributed enough. Some people don't complain because they don't want things to get worse. However, if you decide in the future that you would like to come back, you are always welcome. The only rule that we have is to be friendly, welcoming and polite. It is really simple and my offer to you stands --- if you want my help in improving your communication style, I'll be happy to do help, as long as the effort to improve comes from you. You mentioned Kirill, I have offered him (several years after he left) to put his name back where it belongs into the author list, but he didn't accept the offer. My offer to him stands as well. As to "talk is cheap, show me the code", I removed it long time ago from the wiki. I still love it, after all these years, I think it captures the essence of it --- and I love short sentences like this that bluntly capture the reality. But you have to understand the quote, and if you are new to programming and a completely new contributor to sympy, this can be easily misunderstood, in fact it's rude -- it is rude to say this to a new contributor. But after you get to know people well and you know they know you well, over a beer privately you can say stuff like this. Let me give another example, that doesn't apply to sympy (fortunately!), but nevertheless it captures the same dilemma --- swear words: you can use swear words over a beer with close friends, but you can't do that on a public mailinglist or issues or PRs. It's very similar to "talk is cheap, show me the code", because a right single swear word said at the right time, with the right tone captures the reality better than a thousand words --- so it's a great tool, but it can't be used in public, because if somebody reads an issue, PR or a mailinglist with such a language, 99% of time it will get interpreted badly, it will push people away from the project. And you can't say it to a close friend on a public forum either, for the same reason, even if your friend doesn't get offended, somebody else will. Swearing is an extreme example, but I think it greatly exemplifies the issues involved, that what you can say in private to a close friend you can't say in public, and it doesn't mean that you are a hypocrite. The phrase "talk is cheap, show me the code" is something in between, it's not swearing, but it's not very polite either. Ondrej On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 6:11 AM, Sergey Kirpichev <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello, > > I feel it would be a bad idea to quit silently. Probably, I should > explain this action for others (without "fair warings" and so on). This > thread - probably the best place, due to context. > > I got several private messages about the "tone in pull requests" and so on. > Actually, besides the current example, also these: > https://github.com/sympy/sympy/issues/7971 > https://github.com/sympy/sympy/pull/7356 > (Perhaps, there are more, but I'm not informed of.) > > While I'm ok when someone point on my flaws, errors and so on (sometimes > people > just have bad days, it happens) and I'll try to correct my behaviour > accordingly, > I think this should be done with several principles: > 1) assume good faith > 2) be fair, i.e. analyze the whole conversation, not > part of it or just single commentary (all above cases) > 3) be helpful. For example, if you want to improve > something - just do it. You see bad answer - post good one; you > see unconstructive conversation - help people to reach a consensus. > 4) please remember that all you assertions about > "the tone", kindness and so on - are more or less subjective. > > I feel that these principles are violated here too often. Ondrej also said > me, that > we are loosing people due to the harsh atmosphere I created. If it's a real > issue (i.e. > there are such people), I would like to apologize to them personally and > I'll happy > to announce that I'm not a treat for the sympy community anymore. > Perhaps, it's my bad and my communication skills are too low for the sympy. > > On another hand, if this is a potential loss - please remember, you are > loosing > people for a number of different reasons. For example, if the review is > very > polite, but will end with committing of the wrong and non-professional code > - > this is also bad. People will be disappointed. Also, should we "welcome > to comment on any issue or email thread" without adding some requirements > (see below what I assume from reviewers, for example)? Longer > conversation - harder for other reviewers. Being friendly, welcoming > and polite - not a real requirement here (in first - it's too subjective), > rather a sane suggestion. But if you prefer such "requirements" instead... > Well, perhaps, you guys should wipe out quote "talk is cheap, show me the > code" > from the instructions for newcomers. From the history of the thread in > subject and persons involved, it seems now clear that the sympy community > prefer talks. I don't > think this is a good direction for the project as a whole. For example, I > would like to assume, that every PR reviewer will at least read the workflow > instruction, PR content, relevant documentation and will actually run the > code. > It seems, this is not accepted as a sane assumption by the sympy community. > Then, I think that my involvement in the project was waste of my time and I > should stop one. > > Just "being welcoming and polite" actually looks as a very secondary > goal. Primary one should be - create and save an alive, professional and > productive > community around the project. But for you it's not, for example you lost a > real and very > productive contributor (well, at least one I'm aware off) just due to the > license > change (only potential gain; I'm not sure you got any profit to the present > time) - is this ok? (I don't think so and "authors_skip" variable in the > bin/mailmap_update.py - seems for me as a shame for the project.) > > Sorry for long message, but I think there is something to > think about. Esp. that most members of the sympy group are > inactive now (I hope, this not my bad only) and that the sympy is > just as "close to enter serious CAS market" as it was > in 2008 (when you lost Kirill). > > On Friday, January 2, 2015 at 10:37:40 AM UTC+3, Joachim Durchholz wrote: >> Fair warning: If this kind of behaviour is considered acceptable by the >> project, I'm out of here. Everybody's chance to rid the SymPy project of >> that stubborn, nagging Toolforger me ;-) > > Thanks to Joachim, who showed me the door. Really thanks, no > bad feelings from my side at all. > > Thanks to all, thanks to all who helped me with patches, esp. to Chris and > Aaron. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sympy" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sympy. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sympy/42947884-38ea-4012-aa75-dce287207ed9%40googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sympy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sympy. 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