Hi,
I think this is in danger of getting too technical.
As a for instance; a taxi in the UK is actually legally classed as a
'hackney carriage'. However it normally carries a sign saying 'taxi' and
in general terms everyone knows what a taxi in the UK is. The driver, if
employed as a 'taxi driver' will have had a test & passed additional
requirements to have a hackney carriage license - but will stop if you
shout 'TAXI'. I've seen 'taxi' written on the road several times, but
never 'hackney carriage'.
Throughout the world I am sure there are similar legal definitions, but
you will probably recognize something that will take you and your
luggage, and will have a similar function to a UK taxi. Some kind of
similar abbreviation to 'taxi' will be written on the road.
I'm sure that in every country the driver themselves, plus the legal
professions, will know the legal definitions, and will consider any
navigation system or map as an 'indication only' - if you were stopped
in the wrong place or using the wrong traffic lane you might blame the
satnav, but you can't use it as a legal defense.
There will be similar long winded legal definitions for omnibus, bus,
coach, tram, etc. etc. They probably won't cover the lovingly restored
vehicle from 1907 which doesn't carry fare paying passengers, or any
other number of similar exemptions. In the UK we are lucky enough to
have the highway code, which gives us simple guidance, and there are
probably similar documents available for other countries.
If we're tagging a lane marked 'buses & taxis only', then the tags
should be similarly simple, and it's up to the vehicle driver to make
sure they are complying with the laws applicable to them, and it's not
up to us to add tags for every obscure legal definition available.
Regards
Nick (Tallguy)
On 16/01/14 16:13, Colin Smale wrote:
Nobody uses the archaic word "omnibus" these days. You may as well
suggest replacing "car" with "horseless carriage".
I really think we are trying to square a circle here. There are
irreconcilable differences between countries, and we should not waste
our energy in a war of attrition. Whether a taxi with no passengers is
still a taxi, whether a bus on its way back to the depot is still a
PSV, whether a bus being driven by a mechanic on a test-drive is
allowed in a bus lane, all these things are going to vary by country.
Why don't we all come up individually with a model which fits our own
countries, and then we can see how much correlation there is between
the countries.
A few questions which come to mind:
* If there is a road sign indicating "Taxis only" (might be a road,
might be parking), what is considered a Taxi?
* When is a bus allowed to use a bus lane? Does it include
long-distance scheduled services? Does it include "touring cars"
(a.k.a. coaches in the UK)? Does it include sightseeing tours?
* What is considered a PSV? Does this concept actually exist in your
country - for vehicle licensing or for driver licensing or
something else?
This is intended to *derive* a model of reality, instead of suggesting
thousands of potential ways of tagging things until almost everyone
gives up and goes home.
Whatever tagging scheme is used, it should have some way of
representing reality in many (preferably all) countries. If the
semantics of a tag/value are different by country, let us just
document the standards for that country and move on.
Colin
On 2014-01-16 16:13, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
2014/1/15 martinq <osm-mart...@fantasymail.de
<mailto:osm-mart...@fantasymail.de>>
"in service" was (and is) not required by the definition &
description of the "psv" tag or the "taxi". Only in "bus" it was
mixed in ("acting as a public service").
"in service" is implicit in "public service vehicle", because if they
are not in service they are not psv. For taxi I am not sure, I don't
know whether a taxi is a taxi when the driver is not working, but my
guess is it is not. Maybe someone has more references to clear this up.
There is no way to tag "taxi in service" so far in OSM, only
"taxi" (as a car category).
is there really a "taxi" vehicle category? I am aware that the
vehicle has certain requisites e.g. in Germany in order to be able to
work as taxi, but I am not sure if it is a taxi also off duty.
So I do not agree that "taxi" and "psv" belong to the "by-use" group.
OK, if you get more we have to think about how this can be handled
(e.g. voting?)
I strongly suggest to move "psv", "bus" and "taxi" back to the
original place in the wiki!
for bus there shouldn't be space for discussion, as the definition is
explicit for a long time.
Most mappers are not native English speakers. We can only guess
what they really understand and have understood. But I don't
think it is an intuitive tag.
I think that people that are not native speakers are less of a
problem, as they won't have an idea about the meaning of a cryptic
abbreviation prior to looking it up in the wiki, while people
speaking English but not UK English as their mothertongue are more at
risk of understanding something else (and not looking the definition
up in the wiki).
I do agree that it is not an intuitive tag (but it saves us lots of
bytes in the db ;-) ), and it is a very old tag and quite used.
2) Introduce value "public_transport"
omnibus=no & bus=yes can also be expressed as
omnibus=public_transport
IMHO we can stick to psv.
not clear to me. psv for what?
as generic term for buses and taxis. I agree that creating a new
vehicle class "omnibus" is also appealing, and there are currently 0
uses of this key so it might work out.
Separating "bus" as vehicle category from "by-use" - and putting
it into a value like - is not just more consistent: It is more
flexible (I can distinguish between taxi in service and any taxi
the same way), it easier to understand what
omnibus=public_transport means, compared to the current "bus=yes".
+1
3) Depreciate"psv" (or broaden the meaning to all "public service"
because of the JOSM turn restriction plugin? What about changing that
plugin?
"broaden" the usage will probably not get a majority, but we can see.
Not sure if this is needed anyway.
no, the argument for depreciation was: There is no need for this
artificial group: Grouping taxi (both "in service" as well as not
in service) with only those buses acting as public transport.
Taxi access and bus access are distinct things. No ambiguous,
poorly understood (here the poor plug-in just confirms that PSV
is not well-understood) short-cut like "psv" is needed. If taxi
and bus can access, why not bus=* & taxi=*?
you mean "omnibus" rather than bus, no? +1
By the way:
The key name "tourist_bus" is also non-intuitive, not every
non-public transport bus is a "tourist bus
well, as this doesn't seem to be well defined outside of OSM we can
use what we think is OK, currently the definition is "a bus not
acting as a public service vehicle"
cheers,
Martin
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Nick
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