On 2014-04-04 17:35, Pieren wrote : > On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Nelson A. de Oliveira <[email protected]> > wrote: >> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 10:54 AM, fly <[email protected]> wrote: >>> If it is accepted, I gonna hange the wiki accordingly and gonna ask a >>> for validator checks in JOSM, as we have more than 100,000 ways with >>> this tag. >> Basically I agree with the current text of >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:noexit (except that I don't >> agree to use it on ways). > As I understood, the "noexit=yes" means "this way is a cul-de-sac". > What is unclear if the tag is on the last node or on the way itself ? > It is still a cul-de-sac... > > It seems that 40% of the "noexit=yes" tags are on ways and are > understandable by their contributors but 100% of the persons writing > on this thread do not understand what 40% of the contributors do ... > So, instead of trying to change 40% of the contributors with wiki > fiddling and josm obscure validations, you should try to open a bit > your mind and accept that contributors can supply the same information > in different ways (or nodes ;-). Stay open like "Open"StreetMap ;-) In the survey I made before, I tried in vain indeed to understand what the contributors mean with most of the noexit=yes tags they add. A dead end is, at either end of a way, a node that is not connected to any other allowed or usable way. It's quite visible on any map and it's what the GPS routers understand the best. What's the use of adding noexit=yes that do not show on the map and that the routers ignore?
Here are some noexit=yes on nodes <http://overpass-turbo.eu/map.html?Q=%3C%21--%0AThis%20has%20been%20generated%20by%20the%20overpass-turbo%20wizard.%0AThe%20original%20search%20was%3A%0A%E2%80%9Cnoexit%3Dyes%E2%80%9D%0A--%3E%0A%3Cosm-script%20output%3D%22json%22%20timeout%3D%2225%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cquery%20type%3D%22node%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Chas-kv%20k%3D%22noexit%22%20v%3D%22yes%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cbbox-query%20s%3D%2250.618538570096796%22%20w%3D%225.619184970855713%22%20n%3D%2250.62584897418278%22%20e%3D%225.632467269897461%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fquery%3E%0A%20%20%3C%21--%20print%20results%20--%3E%0A%20%20%3Cprint%20mode%3D%22body%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%3Crecurse%20type%3D%22down%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%3Cprint%20mode%3D%22skeleton%22%20order%3D%22quadtile%22%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fosm-script%3E>. Why are a few dead ends tagged and the others generally not? What is its meaning at the steps <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/239040172>? That cars cannot use the steps or that it's a dead end for pedestrian too? What does it mean in the middle of rue des Crahlis <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/58297735>? That the main street cannot be reached from the end or the opposite? Etc. Here are some noexit=yes tags on ways <http://overpass-turbo.eu/map.html?Q=%3C%21--%0AThis%20has%20been%20generated%20by%20the%20overpass-turbo%20wizard.%0AThe%20original%20search%20was%3A%0A%E2%80%9Cnoexit%3Dyes%E2%80%9D%0A--%3E%0A%3Cosm-script%20output%3D%22json%22%20timeout%3D%2225%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cquery%20type%3D%22way%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Chas-kv%20k%3D%22noexit%22%20v%3D%22yes%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cbbox-query%20s%3D%2250.66839555058174%22%20w%3D%225.717890262603759%22%20n%3D%2250.67569820203223%22%20e%3D%225.731172561645508%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fquery%3E%0A%20%20%3C%21--%20print%20results%20--%3E%0A%20%20%3Cprint%20mode%3D%22body%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%3Crecurse%20type%3D%22down%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%3Cprint%20mode%3D%22skeleton%22%20order%3D%22quadtile%22%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fosm-script%3E>. What information do they bring? At which end of the ways is the dead end? And, if the answer id "it's obvious" why is an obvious thing highlighted? Why is Chienrue and many others not dead ends? Why is this segment <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/91796014> and the others a dead end? Is it impossible to go round the loop? Why is this a dead end <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/92843940> and not the stub on the left? Etc. Those tags are constant riddles. Yes, please help us understand. Now, regarding JOSM and Osmose validations, it's not clear what obscurity you speak about. More usage instructions <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:noexit#More_usage_instructions> to which I added a link explains a very clear experiment showing that JOSM and Osmose make a "way ending near an other way" sanity test and the noexit page is very clear that the purpose of noexit is to mute that test (telling that there is no tagging problem). That's the meaning of noexit, not to tag dead ends generally. Unfortunately, 1) The noexit page used to say "Use the noexit at the end of a highway to indicate that there no possibility to travel further ..." when the meaning is in reality "... *on the node* at ... to indicate when doubtful *that the impossibility* to travel further ... *is perfectly normal*, ...". 2) contributors used to read only that phrase, not the full explanation below it, and tagged a useless noexit condition instead of only confirming doubtful dead ends that are now impossible to spot in the noexit mass 3) others do "similar and inventive" tagging as I describe next, looking like other tagging or "better", including noexit traffic signs not telling where the blocking occurs, not even in what direction it is. The least that can be said is that the rules of noexit=yes were hard to read and not respected. I hope this improved a bit. I'm in despair because I often read that the wiki is not important, because it's often ambiguously stated, because contributors say that no votes are needed, that they can tag as they feel it, even vandalize other tags, just keeping an eye on what the others are doing and discussing among themselves. This is particularly harmful regarding routing (GPS). Contributors say that the public laughs at the detours of OSM users, I corrected many mistakes letting cars go where they shouldn't, I even was scolded for correcting obvious mistakes on the wiki, OSM users laugh at themselves and I was even laughed at for saying that OSM routing is important. The worst is in statements from the Walloon Government, saying, regarding a possible cooperation or exchange of data with OSM, that OSM may not be up to their requirements for data quality. Cheers, André.
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