Thanks Adam, well put.
There are two groups, both trying to be of service to the wider
community. The mappers trying to build better maps and land managers
trying to protect and manage public land well.
If a land manager sees mappers not respecting their decisions about
managing public land, they will see it as vandalism. If mappers see
Parks deleting map data, they will see that as vandalism too.
The problem is that there is very little communication between the two
groups. Partly because Parks people are overworked and time poor, at
least in Victoria which I know best. Also because consensus management
and public forums are an unfamiliar form of management for Parks. They
are looking for the person in charge and confidential discussions.
The paths include high stakes stuff, some trivial, but also tracks
that may lure people over cliffs and environmental damage that may
last forever. We are doing better at communicating than the land
managers are at the moment. That is good. I am glad to be part of this
group which is so patient and so responsible. I want us to keep being
responsible and keep listening.
And I again invite the land managers to engage with us in discussion,
here or another place of their choice. It is a serious issue that will
only be resolved through discussion.
Tony
Wait ... does the OSM community seriously want to call public land managers
vandals for attempting to manage access to parts of public land effectively?
This is a publicly archived forum, which land managers may read.
It's been raised a few times, and I have no problem raising this again:
- OSM have zero control over who renders what downstream, regardless of
tags.
- the existence of trails in a map infers useability at some point.
- continually reinstating trails to a database may incur real world
monetary, ecological, landscape and cultural costs, aside from time of
people engaging in slow edit wars. Who is OSM is then liable for those
costs?
- who in the land management community would now feel inclined to join this
discussion? It seems obvious the OSM community isn't prepared to listen,
only to talk...
This thread has been a bit mind numbing. I've tried hard to avoid writing
this post, and couldn't any more.
There are more important values than a database. Land managers have better
things to do that have edit wars.
And to repeat, OSM has no control over who renders what downstream. Please
respect a land managers decision, or at least ask about it respectfully and
wait as long as is needed for a response. They're busy..managing land.
With regards,
Adam
On Thu, Feb 29, 2024, 21:09 Andrew Welch via Talk-au <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
As much as we want to wait on them and work with them, there?s probably a
point at which we should treat their edits like vandalism (and just revert
their deletions) until they actually work with us.
Thanks,
Andrew Welch
m...@andrewwelch.net
On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 at 8:13?pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefi...@gmail.com>
wrote:
I've yet had no response back from Stephen Stenberg re Slate Falls
Lookout, after I basically repeated what you all had already said
to him :-(
Thanks
Graeme
On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 at 10:51, Andrew Welch via Talk-au <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
The user who's edits were revered by Frederik has now tagged those ways
as access=no, hopefully that means the message is starting to get
across to
NPWS.
They did set some questionable names on those trails though, and haven't
replied to a changeset comment asking about those.
Thanks,
Andrew Welch
m...@andrewwelch.net
On Wed, 28 Feb 2024 at 23:12, Mark Pulley <mrpul...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
There?s probably going to be other examples of NPWS deleting paths.
I?ve just had a look at the Jungle Circuit in Blackheath. This
was deleted
by NPWS https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/144648041 - at least
most of it was, a small bridge was left behind near the creek, and the
first part from Rodriguez Pass was left alone. With Rodriguez Pass
currently closed, I?m not able to check it in-person. It was passable in
2017, with some indistinct sections, so it?s possible that the 2020 fires
and 2022 floods have finished it off. I?ve asked a clarifying question on
the changeset.
Mark P.
On 27 Feb 2024, at 8:53?pm, Frederik Ramm <frede...@remote.org> wrote:
I haven't followed this thread and I don't know if this is relevant to
the discussion but I have just reverted the deletion of a bunch
of paths in
Tweed Shire, NSW here https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147956474
- the deleter claims to have ties to NPS.
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09"
E008°23'33"
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